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Concrete floor and laminate

#11
Well in my humble opinion the tests performed were near what you would expect after the slab being covered by a nonporous covering like a sheet vinyl. The moisture in the slab equillibrated, moved up to the top like it naturally does. Course those guys who tested your slab probably didn't use the Wagner probes did they?

Anyway, those box store people don't know didily about how to control moisture issues. Out here they have a measure guy carry a concrete moisture meter around. If it reads high they usually walk away. I have never heard of them actually doing a real moisture test. And the managers typically are new business grads and have no flooring experience, met quite a few of them.

I suggest you use this product from Durabond, part of Bostik inc.

http://www.bostik-us.com/files/tdsfiles/d261.pdf

Then use six mil over it, float the floor with the appropriate cushion. Of course the slab needs to be checked for sealers and all that stuff they require. Go to a real flooring store or find a independant contractor who is knowledgeable in these situations.

Option #2, buy a wood like porcelain tile planks



Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#12
Ernesto, with all respect due to a concrete guru like yourself Tongue please think about the situation here for a minute and see if we don't agree.

The slab has been 'open' for the last 20 years or so. It has had ample time to dry. If there were no moisture being fed to it from below, there is no way there would be a moisture problem.

When the slab was covered by a (quite breathable) laminate flooring, the result was mold and failure. This is not moisture equilibrating through the slab like a fresh concrete floor would. This is a slab being supplied with water from below.

I found this scenario in Vegas on a bone dry slab with no vapor retarder under it. The RH probe read high and nobody believed it until the new floor failed and water was found under the new vinyl. Where did it come from? It was always there, just always drying out.

If we think that way, we must realize the water available to the slab is unlimited. Potential RH is 100% and alkalinity movement through the slab could be very high. The mitigation system must be able to handle 100% RH and unlimited alkalinity. I would estimate repair costs to do this right will end up at $4 /sf with a guarantee of no problems ever.

Okay, the link Ernesto posted just finally finished loading (slow link, don't know why) and it is a PDF for Durabond 261. It just so happens I am also certified with that product, long story.... It is a different type of mitigation system, the surface must be shot blasted to a CSP 2-3, and then the product is mixed and rolled out on the floor. It's very sticky, and when it dries it leaves a lot of bubbles (imagine bubble wrap packing). It sticks like OMG to anything it touches and remains flexible. I have some of it left from the job I did in fact.... I don't have a use for it, I could probably be talked into giving it away if someone wants it. Cool
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#13
CC, I sort of agree with exception to this part;
Quote:I found this scenario in Vegas on a bone dry slab with no vapor retarder under it. The RH probe read high and nobody believed it until the new floor failed and water was found under the new vinyl. Where did it come from? It was always there, just always drying out.

How can it be bone dry and yet read high?Rolleyes

I wasn't aware the 261 HAD to be shotblasted, only if a sealer was on it. I think yer reading more into it than there is.

I get lots of bubbles with MVP4 as well. Does not hurt a thing. Depends on ths surface porousity I would imagine.

Oh wait, two things, I don't agree that a covered slab with a 2 n 1 vapor retarder is that breatheable. And it had only been uncovered for a few days. Concrete drys alot slower than it gains moisture. At least here in the state of Baja Arizona.Big Grin
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#14
Just so we're all on the same page, the instructions for application say:

Completely remove cutback adhesive residue or other surface
contaminants by shotblasting. All surfaces to be treated must
have a profile of CSP 2-3 (similar to light broom finish), as
defined by ICRI (International Concrete Repair Institute,
Guideline No. 03732).


Which means if ANYTHING is on the concrete, it must be blasted, and the concrete must be a CSP 2-3, which is easily achieved by blasting. Anything less than following these instructions to the letter means you will give the manufacturer a way out of the warranty.

As for how a slab can be dry but read high RH: The slab can look dry, feel dry, have low PH and low MVER, but the bottom can be quite wet. An RH test reads deeper in the slab and shows that lower level moisture. Dry ambient conditions can dry the top 1/4" to 1/2" of the slab rather quickly and lead installers to believe they have a dry slab. But put a vapor retarding cover on that slab and the moisture builds up within the slab and saturates it. This is the achilles heel of modern moisture testing.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#15
Yea yea, no one pays attention to the CSP 2-3. Who leaves a broom finish on anything besides a porch these days? I'd rather throw on some K-15 or 55 and broom it than have some bead blaster come in if I didn't need it. And thats a big IF.
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#16
(03-22-2011, 07:23 PM)Ernesto Wrote:  Yea yea, no one pays attention to the CSP 2-3. Who leaves a broom finish on anything besides a porch these days? I'd rather throw on some K-15 or 55 and broom it than have some bead blaster come in if I didn't need it. And thats a big IF.

I'm just quoting the specs for installing the product. That is the way i do it, I blast the surface.

If an installer were to put K-15 on the slab and then apply the mitigation system.... well that is really wrong, and I hope no one reads your post as that being an option. Patches and SLU's are not warranted or advised under a mitigation system, and the specs for all mitigation systems point out that no patches or fillers can be used under them except for a limited number of fast setting cements.

The CSP 2-3 provides a mechanical bond to the concrete and also removes the weaker carbonated layer of the concrete surface. It is easy to achieve using a shot blaster. Wink
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#17
"Patches and SLU's are not warranted or advised under a mitigation system"
- This is not 100% correct. Koester has been using this option as a silicate encasing screed for a long time.
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#18
(03-23-2011, 09:28 AM)eaadams Wrote:  "Patches and SLU's are not warranted or advised under a mitigation system"
- This is not 100% correct. Koester has been using this option as a silicate encasing screed for a long time.

Koester uses Rapid Set cement as a barrier layer. This is not a patch or an SLU. Rapid setting cements are appropriate, not K-15, Feather Finish and the like.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#19
yes I stand corrected. (should have pulled the spec book)

What is the definition of "patch" and "SLU"?
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#20
Well in this case, patch and SLU's would be considered smoothing compounds consisting of fine aggregates and incapable of withstanding 100% humidity and alkalinity. I'm sure there are more defining terms out there, Tongue but I don't mess with the details because I ask for approvals before I install anything like this. The line has been getting blurry with these hybrid concrete mixtures that are nearly self-leveling yet are cement based and unaffected by water.

Heck, they have gypsum based SLU's that reach 6,000 + psi now!
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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