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**EXPERT Advice Needed** - VERY Moist Slab With LOTS of Vapor! What to do?
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11-03-2011, 06:43 PM #21
Status: Offline Posts:10 Threads:0 Joined:Oct 2011
It always amazes me when "so call experts" make statements like "Monky blood". It is insulting, evidence of ignorance and just what has perpetuated the inability of the flooring industry to resolve the excess moisture (RH and VT) issue. We will not at this point deal with the difference.

Now I will continue addressing those who really want knowledge on silicates. Concrete is a material that depends on Silicates to bind the aggregates together (CSH) Calcium Silcate Hydrate. Cement needs water to hydrate but this process is very inefficient. A useless hydrate that is left in concrete is Ca(HO)2 but if you can encourage this hydrate back into the hydration cycle you will produce more CSH.
This is accomplished, not with Meta Silicates alone but a skillful blending of xxzkxszty??? and silicates.

The process enables cement to hydrate like it is on streoids and this is termed the pozzolanic effect and from Roman times they did this very well with volcanic ash. Only a monkey would say Roman concrete used monkey blood although they did use bulls blood (nasty).

Water Glass!!! in other words Meta Silcate, very bad for concrete, why? only if this is employed as an unreacted silca, as you will end up with "concrete cancer". Concrete that will cause to debond any coating applied onto this surface, as hydrostatic vapour transmission from beneath the coating carries dissolved Ca(HO)2 and this will cause the coating adhesive distress and they will debond.

Freshly poured concrete which retains very high moisture content can also debond caotings if applied too soon. That is where ICD comes into play.

Some say they can stop this even if a meta silicate is embedded into the concrete surface but eventually the chemical reaction from the water bourne contaminants (either from the concrete itself or from the ground beneath the slab) will, not might but will break down the cement just under the coating overtime.

There are companies that sell in great quantities, pure "Meta Silicate solutions" as hardeners. Yes they are hardeners and yes they will react with the free lime and become themselves an integral part of the finished paste cover but very shallow into the upper layer of cement (steel trowelled) finished paste. This is where we get all the "Monkey Blood" hysteria about silicates, shame on these dooms day proclaimers.

ICD is silicates blended so as to fully integrate with the cement and water (yes your water is of equal importance to the cement) so as to produce from a OPC concrete a concrete that has about twice the CSH, with a densification like (virtual zero moisture permeability), like granite, we use the md (mille darcy) to confirm this. Cement that holds mix water longer (beyond 6 months) for extended controlled hydration but will release so little from the concrete that you can coat within days.

Best regards to those really listening.

11-03-2011, 08:48 PM #22
Status: Offline Posts:10 Threads:0 Joined:Oct 2011
I looked up your suggested comparison to Enhance in Australia. Con-treat uses all the same termonology that you will find in companies that believe that useing catch phrases and suedo science makes for knowledge. There are just as many such in this continent.

I do not believe the Enhance site comes close to such shallow science.
One of the past presidents of ACI was presented with our testing and technical data on ICD technology. And can you blame him when there is so much suedo science out there (and they sincerely believe in what they present), he was not convinced.

It was my son who was part of the same organization as he that pressed that he evaluate the data. 2 years later he contacted Enhance and offered to have the best testing labs and concrete specialists do an extensive evaluation program of the ICD claims, as he upon re-evaluation believed this was warrented. He is now our testing and concrete consultant, because he saw things that if true he as a true professional believed that the concrete industry needed to be informed.

Alexander Fleming (himself a doctor and a Scot) was ridiculed when he presented Penicillin as a fundamental advance in medicine. Who was advancing true science, he or the establishment!!!!!

I have no vested interest in the flooring industry but the flooring industry has an invested interest in its own integrity. Concrete has the ability to be its own first line of defense against permeability of moisture and deleterious water bourne contaminants. Using good concrete practice is can be shrinkage crack free and also as durable as granite. The Romans did it so can modern engineers.

Best regards.

Best regards.

11-03-2011, 08:54 PM #23
eaadams Concrete Moisture Expert *****
Status: Offline Posts:600 Threads:88 Joined:Jul 2010
This thread has been hijacked and needs a moderator intervention

11-03-2011, 10:19 PM #24
Rubensgt40 Concrete Moisture Coach ***
Status: Offline Posts:172 Threads:13 Joined:Oct 2011
(11-03-2011, 08:48 PM)john macdonald Wrote:  I looked up your suggested comparison to Enhance in Australia. Con-treat uses all the same termonology that you will find in companies that believe that useing catch phrases and suedo science makes for knowledge. There are just as many such in this continent.

I agree that this particular site uses more sales pitch language than anything. It referred to "colloidal silicate" components and fast curing, so I assumed this was a similar concept to ICD, whether inferior or not.

As I said, nothing against the process, it looks fascinating and is appealingly simple, and probably prevents moisture migration to the surface. No doubt there are applications for which it is useful. The problem is, if you'll excuse my lack of scientific terminology, that it seems to rely on densifying, which is detrimental to flooring adhesives generally, therefore a concern for many on this forum.

The problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money.
- Margaret Thatcher

11-04-2011, 05:51 AM #25
CC Solutions Concrete Moisture Evangelist *******
Status: Offline Posts:1,067 Threads:69 Joined:Dec 2009
The density of the concrete doesn't concern me, as we have adhesives that can bond to non-porous substrates.

I cannot get an adhesive manufacturer to warrant their adhesive over a surface applied silicate product which is used for vapor reduction. There have been far too many costly failures with these products.

They have their place in the industry and work well on concrete that is not receiving floor covering.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems

11-04-2011, 10:32 AM #26
rapidrhrep Concrete Moisture Tutor **
Status: Offline Posts:85 Threads:3 Joined:Aug 2011
I am just going to put this out there. If this information, from one of the foremost experts and from one of the most reputable organizations doesn't sum certain things up, I'm not sure what will. Enough said.


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11-04-2011, 10:55 AM #27
CC Solutions Concrete Moisture Evangelist *******
Status: Offline Posts:1,067 Threads:69 Joined:Dec 2009
When I heard foremost expert I expected maybe you'd post something of mine, but Howard is good enough I guess... Blush

Remember John is throwing surface applied silicates into the ring... We are having long emails back and forth and I am trying to bring him up to speed regarding the use of these products in the flooring industry.

I don't fault John, he is a sharp man and knows exactly what his products do. The application is wrong for flooring adhesives though.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems

11-04-2011, 11:11 AM #28
rapidrhrep Concrete Moisture Tutor **
Status: Offline Posts:85 Threads:3 Joined:Aug 2011
JD- I really tried to find something of yours, but there were so many pieces to chose from I just couldn't decide. Big Grin

I did not mean this piece I posted to imply anything negative of anyone or anyone's thoughts. This forum is obviously geared towards moisture and moisture testing in concrete within the flooring/coatings industry, and as such, this piece is pertinent. The topically applied silicates have been around for a long time and seem to continually rear their heads with "incredible" claims of solving all of our moisture problems.


11-04-2011, 11:45 AM #29
Status: Offline Posts:10 Threads:0 Joined:Oct 2011
I regret that some may feel this forum has been hi-jacked but unless one investigates and is challenged how do you learn. The flooring industry seems to have a ongoing moisture problem that just does not seem to go away, I simply forwarded an alternative which has been muddied by sudo science.

I also have experience difficulty with certain silcate (meta Silcate) hardeners on floors that delaminated their coverings. From experience we knew Enhance ICD cannot migrate through this upper densified layer to rehydrate the matrix. We did a core and sliced the surface layers to determine the depth of penitration (about 3/16 to 1/4"). This was too expensive to remove so the floors were diamond polished.

Our testing program for Enhance ICD admixtures will shortly be finalizes (7 months into a 12 month evaluation). The findings are to determine how ICD affects the long term performance of concrete. Shrinkage, strength, (and a whole lot of aspects the flooring industry need not know) set time, self curing and the pozzolanic reaction.

We believe if you use concrete or concrete is intergral to your business, then invest in really good concrete and not be needing to address issues (at great cost after the concrete is down). We do this now but as our very competent ACI advisor has directed we are having our technology evaluated and certified from a sourse that "no one will question". That cannot be bad can it???

Concrete should be forever (at least 100years) Roman over 2000yrs.
Concrete is not "green" if you have to tear it up, modify it after it hardens etc. Flooring concrete should be bond ready within days.

I respect your time and the interesting input from certain members. This will be my last post. To contact Enhance futher eiitech@shaw.ca

My best regards.

11-04-2011, 12:07 PM #30
CC Solutions Concrete Moisture Evangelist *******
Status: Offline Posts:1,067 Threads:69 Joined:Dec 2009
I hope that is not your last post, we are all here to learn and to challenge as you said.

I have rules I have to live by, and one rule is that I have to keep the adhesive manufacturer's warranty. As far as I know, no adhesive manufacturer will warrant their product on your product. If you find information contrary to that, please pass it on, as that will be a world changing event.

If one of my projects fail the costs can be quite staggering.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems

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