http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/ Sat, 04 Feb 2012 06:26:15 +0000 MyBB http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-talked-but-she-didn-t-listen Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:31:09 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-talked-but-she-didn-t-listen
She called me and described the floor colors and textures and warranties, and how the installer had his own guys and never subbed work out....

I of course explained my concern that she has her slab properly tested for moisture before she has a wood floor installed.

She said they install floors all the time in houses like hers and they are beautiful and easy to clean and blah blah blah.

I said I'd ask for Wagner Rapid RH testing. The three probes will cost less than 1% of the total price of the install and you will know the health of your concrete slab.

She said, "Oh yeah, they said they test the concrete first", then went back to rambling about the decision between a natural bamboo or a laminate floating floor.

I told her if they use a CaCl test, the new ASTM requires grinding the slab, waiting 24 hours, installing the kit and then waiting 72 hours to weigh the test. Don't let them just slap a kit down, and really you should demand a Rapid RH test!

She said if she signs today, they can have the floor installed Monday. She just wasn't sure if the bamboo was worth the extra $2300.

It was obvious she wasn't hearing what I was saying. And in my mind, I had been bringing up the most important aspect of flooring on concrete. I believe the mental block is that if her floor doesn't pass the test I want her to do, she will either have to give up on getting a new floor, or it will cost her more money to install it.

I explained to her that if her floor were to fail down the road, she will probably face an installer that will tell her the concrete tested okay when he installed it, so something must have changed.

She said it must be fine because the carpet has been down for years and there's no trouble with that.

I told her that yes the carpet will allow the slab to dry, but what if they didn't put down a vapor retarder or what if there's a blotter layer or what if the retarder is full of holes? A Rapid RH has a good chance of picking up those clues.

She asked if I'm putting a laminate in my new addition, or staying with solid wood...

I wasn't getting through at all. I gave up. I asked her to call after the installer did his testing. I will keep you posted on what testing is done before this guy does the job and walks off with her money.]]>
She called me and described the floor colors and textures and warranties, and how the installer had his own guys and never subbed work out....

I of course explained my concern that she has her slab properly tested for moisture before she has a wood floor installed.

She said they install floors all the time in houses like hers and they are beautiful and easy to clean and blah blah blah.

I said I'd ask for Wagner Rapid RH testing. The three probes will cost less than 1% of the total price of the install and you will know the health of your concrete slab.

She said, "Oh yeah, they said they test the concrete first", then went back to rambling about the decision between a natural bamboo or a laminate floating floor.

I told her if they use a CaCl test, the new ASTM requires grinding the slab, waiting 24 hours, installing the kit and then waiting 72 hours to weigh the test. Don't let them just slap a kit down, and really you should demand a Rapid RH test!

She said if she signs today, they can have the floor installed Monday. She just wasn't sure if the bamboo was worth the extra $2300.

It was obvious she wasn't hearing what I was saying. And in my mind, I had been bringing up the most important aspect of flooring on concrete. I believe the mental block is that if her floor doesn't pass the test I want her to do, she will either have to give up on getting a new floor, or it will cost her more money to install it.

I explained to her that if her floor were to fail down the road, she will probably face an installer that will tell her the concrete tested okay when he installed it, so something must have changed.

She said it must be fine because the carpet has been down for years and there's no trouble with that.

I told her that yes the carpet will allow the slab to dry, but what if they didn't put down a vapor retarder or what if there's a blotter layer or what if the retarder is full of holes? A Rapid RH has a good chance of picking up those clues.

She asked if I'm putting a laminate in my new addition, or staying with solid wood...

I wasn't getting through at all. I gave up. I asked her to call after the installer did his testing. I will keep you posted on what testing is done before this guy does the job and walks off with her money.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Help-Please Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:19:33 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Help-Please
My subcontractor has been taking moisture readings using his Rapid RH and getting readings consistently in the 95 - 99% range for three months without change. Because of these high readings he is demanding a $40,000 change order for moisture barrier. I watched the sub take his last set of readings and he stuck the probe in the hole and got a result in about 15 seconds. This seems contradictory to the ASTM acclimation of the probe statement.

So I had a testing company come out and take readings with their Delmhorst equipment. Readings came in at 67% and 77%. I reviewed the testing procedures with the tech and observed his procedures. I can find no fault with his work.

The sub of course does not agree and states the testing company did their tests wrong.

So now I have the sub conducting new tests in new locations and I am going to have the testing company observe.

Can anyone offer any advice as to what I should be looking for?

From what I have read most mistakes in testing procedures lead to high readings, is this correct?]]>
My subcontractor has been taking moisture readings using his Rapid RH and getting readings consistently in the 95 - 99% range for three months without change. Because of these high readings he is demanding a $40,000 change order for moisture barrier. I watched the sub take his last set of readings and he stuck the probe in the hole and got a result in about 15 seconds. This seems contradictory to the ASTM acclimation of the probe statement.

So I had a testing company come out and take readings with their Delmhorst equipment. Readings came in at 67% and 77%. I reviewed the testing procedures with the tech and observed his procedures. I can find no fault with his work.

The sub of course does not agree and states the testing company did their tests wrong.

So now I have the sub conducting new tests in new locations and I am going to have the testing company observe.

Can anyone offer any advice as to what I should be looking for?

From what I have read most mistakes in testing procedures lead to high readings, is this correct?]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Jason-is-a-weenie Wed, 18 Jan 2012 02:59:02 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Jason-is-a-weenie
What he really did is make me jealous that he is in the land of beer, pretzels, pastries and delis while I am stuck here in the land of cold, fast food, and cheap swill.....

I thought you were my friend Jason.

Hoist a cold one for me and give a cheer! Prosit!]]>
What he really did is make me jealous that he is in the land of beer, pretzels, pastries and delis while I am stuck here in the land of cold, fast food, and cheap swill.....

I thought you were my friend Jason.

Hoist a cold one for me and give a cheer! Prosit!]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-think-the-economy-is-improving Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:18:17 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-think-the-economy-is-improving
It is nice to be busy again.

How about all of you?]]>
It is nice to be busy again.

How about all of you?]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Ardex-promotes-the-Wagner-Rapid-RH-probe Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:08:34 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Ardex-promotes-the-Wagner-Rapid-RH-probe

If you have never been to an Ardex plant (there are two in the states now) I can heartily recommend the experience. Ardex hires top shelf personnel, and trains them extensively. And the company sticks behind them, which is important so that what you are told in the field is what they will honor.

Anyway, I was sitting in a conference room with one of their new guys, Jeff, and was going through the moisture testing part of their training. Jeff pulled out his Wagner Rapid RH box and said, "We don't get paid to show these, and I have no affiliation with this company, but I like these probes".

Jeff then showed us how to use the probes (too briefly for my tastes, and I kept interjecting important tidbits of knowledge that would help these new recruits on the front lines i.e. Jeff would brush and vacuum the hole while I would triple and quadruple brush and vac, and I explained the reason we drill 40% or 20%, why we check for fluted decks and the concept of equilibration..... I've been working with these guys for 16 years.... they KNOW I'm going to jump in at these classes ) anyway, I couldn't resist and had to ask Jeff if Ardex relied exclusively on RH testing for their slab moisture readings. Jeff said yes. Then I said I know Ardex prefers Wagner Rapid RH, but do they exclude other manufacturers? Unfortunately he said they do not at this time. As long as the test method follows the ASTM, Ardex will accept it.

While I was disappointed to hear that news, it did open the door for me to jump in again and explain the differences in probe design and the troubles inherent with sleeves and leapfrogging readers, along with calibration confirmation requirements. By the time I was done I think I had everyone convinced that for the low introductory price of a reader, and then the speed and accuracy of each probe, using anything but a Wagner would be ludicrous!

I made some believers, but really when I pitch Wagner I help myself and all of us working in this business. Accurate RH readings are vitally important, and the more Rapid RH testing we do and the more everyone see the Wagner and knows about it, the better off we all are. RH testing is seen as voodoo by some, and I have to believe it is because of poor testing equipment and unqualified and/or uncaring testers performing these tests. We are changing that with every Wagner we use.]]>

If you have never been to an Ardex plant (there are two in the states now) I can heartily recommend the experience. Ardex hires top shelf personnel, and trains them extensively. And the company sticks behind them, which is important so that what you are told in the field is what they will honor.

Anyway, I was sitting in a conference room with one of their new guys, Jeff, and was going through the moisture testing part of their training. Jeff pulled out his Wagner Rapid RH box and said, "We don't get paid to show these, and I have no affiliation with this company, but I like these probes".

Jeff then showed us how to use the probes (too briefly for my tastes, and I kept interjecting important tidbits of knowledge that would help these new recruits on the front lines i.e. Jeff would brush and vacuum the hole while I would triple and quadruple brush and vac, and I explained the reason we drill 40% or 20%, why we check for fluted decks and the concept of equilibration..... I've been working with these guys for 16 years.... they KNOW I'm going to jump in at these classes ) anyway, I couldn't resist and had to ask Jeff if Ardex relied exclusively on RH testing for their slab moisture readings. Jeff said yes. Then I said I know Ardex prefers Wagner Rapid RH, but do they exclude other manufacturers? Unfortunately he said they do not at this time. As long as the test method follows the ASTM, Ardex will accept it.

While I was disappointed to hear that news, it did open the door for me to jump in again and explain the differences in probe design and the troubles inherent with sleeves and leapfrogging readers, along with calibration confirmation requirements. By the time I was done I think I had everyone convinced that for the low introductory price of a reader, and then the speed and accuracy of each probe, using anything but a Wagner would be ludicrous!

I made some believers, but really when I pitch Wagner I help myself and all of us working in this business. Accurate RH readings are vitally important, and the more Rapid RH testing we do and the more everyone see the Wagner and knows about it, the better off we all are. RH testing is seen as voodoo by some, and I have to believe it is because of poor testing equipment and unqualified and/or uncaring testers performing these tests. We are changing that with every Wagner we use.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-tester123 Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:37:57 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-tester123
All the best,
Admin]]>
All the best,
Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Rapid-RH-video-Ideas-for-Jason Tue, 06 Dec 2011 21:45:15 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Rapid-RH-video-Ideas-for-Jason another thread for Jason's next video.

We'd love to hear more of your feedback. if there are other ideas for industry related topics you want to hear more about, put them in this thread.

If you'd like to be rich and famous like our very own, Emmy award winner, Jason, make your own industry related video and let us know about it.

thanks!

Admin]]> another thread for Jason's next video.

We'd love to hear more of your feedback. if there are other ideas for industry related topics you want to hear more about, put them in this thread.

If you'd like to be rich and famous like our very own, Emmy award winner, Jason, make your own industry related video and let us know about it.

thanks!

Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-new-wagner-product Tue, 06 Dec 2011 01:39:57 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-new-wagner-product http://www.wagnermeters.com/news.php?a=d...XU.twitter

1st to post. Nener nener.

Time for Jason to do a video on dew point with this new tool.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/news.php?a=d...XU.twitter

1st to post. Nener nener.

Time for Jason to do a video on dew point with this new tool.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Vet-Clinic Sun, 04 Dec 2011 16:58:09 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Vet-Clinic
Two of my sensors read HI and one 99% the next day. Just wonding if you think this could be a lack of acclimation or an actual moisture issue. Floor looks a teeny bit bumpy underneath.]]>
Two of my sensors read HI and one 99% the next day. Just wonding if you think this could be a lack of acclimation or an actual moisture issue. Floor looks a teeny bit bumpy underneath.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Brand-opinion-sought-am-I-allowed-to-ask-this Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:03:20 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Brand-opinion-sought-am-I-allowed-to-ask-this
I've been approached by US company DriTac, plugging their adhesives and moisture control systems. Perhaps they're wanting to get seen Down Under.

Anybody have any experience with their products?

I note that the data sheet for their moisture barrier gives no set standard as to it's performance or required application, other than "reduces the transmission rate of moisture vapor within any concrete subfloor (up to 12 lbs) to levels accepted by most wood flooring manufacturers". Sounds a bit vague and antiquated to me.]]>
I've been approached by US company DriTac, plugging their adhesives and moisture control systems. Perhaps they're wanting to get seen Down Under.

Anybody have any experience with their products?

I note that the data sheet for their moisture barrier gives no set standard as to it's performance or required application, other than "reduces the transmission rate of moisture vapor within any concrete subfloor (up to 12 lbs) to levels accepted by most wood flooring manufacturers". Sounds a bit vague and antiquated to me.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Is-Wagner-seeking-volunteers-to-help-out-in-Germany-at-Domotex Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:57:53 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Is-Wagner-seeking-volunteers-to-help-out-in-Germany-at-Domotex ]]> ]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-USC-Technologies-Aridus-Has-anyone-any-information Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:19:07 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-USC-Technologies-Aridus-Has-anyone-any-information
The most I know is that it will dry to 75% RH within a few months and has a 5 year warranty regarding moisture. Of course what I wonder is the cost and availability.]]>
The most I know is that it will dry to 75% RH within a few months and has a 5 year warranty regarding moisture. Of course what I wonder is the cost and availability.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Congratulations-Rubensgt40-is-now-a-Concrete-Moisture-Enthusiast Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:03:53 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Congratulations-Rubensgt40-is-now-a-Concrete-Moisture-Enthusiast

All the best,
Admin]]>

All the best,
Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Put-Me-To-Sleep-Part-1 Fri, 11 Nov 2011 03:03:49 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Put-Me-To-Sleep-Part-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJvdpvpt1...ure=relmfu]]> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJvdpvpt1...ure=relmfu]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Not-Best-Practice Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:25:16 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Not-Best-Practice
]]>
]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Made-in-the-USA Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:50:09 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Made-in-the-USA All the prices were the same, $14. I didn't buy any of them.

Why can't a store stock a good pan made in the USA and then tout it as such? Maybe it will cost $25, but it will be better and I'd feel better buying it. Maybe I should open a store of things ONLY made in the US like WalMart USED to be.]]> All the prices were the same, $14. I didn't buy any of them.

Why can't a store stock a good pan made in the USA and then tout it as such? Maybe it will cost $25, but it will be better and I'd feel better buying it. Maybe I should open a store of things ONLY made in the US like WalMart USED to be.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-MMS-Are-some-unreliable-with-high-RH Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:24:13 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-MMS-Are-some-unreliable-with-high-RH
We recently consulted on a timber flooring installation moisture-related failure, where a vapour barrier was applied.

The manufacturer subsequently changed their spec sheets to stipulate that, if the moisture content was above a certain level (yes, I said content, not RH- the standards here still make it optional to use either criteria), two coats of their barrier are required instead of the previously stipulated one.

This was an admission of non-performance by the manufacturer and, to their credit, they copped a six-figure sum in remedial expense.

Is there a point where some MMS's will not guarantee performance where the RH is too high? Even if they wouldn't admit to it, do some installers here use a sort of "best-practice discretion"?]]>
We recently consulted on a timber flooring installation moisture-related failure, where a vapour barrier was applied.

The manufacturer subsequently changed their spec sheets to stipulate that, if the moisture content was above a certain level (yes, I said content, not RH- the standards here still make it optional to use either criteria), two coats of their barrier are required instead of the previously stipulated one.

This was an admission of non-performance by the manufacturer and, to their credit, they copped a six-figure sum in remedial expense.

Is there a point where some MMS's will not guarantee performance where the RH is too high? Even if they wouldn't admit to it, do some installers here use a sort of "best-practice discretion"?]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-High-Rapid-RH-readings Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:13:30 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-High-Rapid-RH-readings Conditions:
-New 2500sq.ft. slab 6" thick installed over vapor barrier over 12" gravel foundation.
-trowel finished with no other products added (no sealer or other)
-installed 3 RH probes at 40% depth after 1 month of pour. Sensors read 97% after 1 hour and 99% ever since.
-Its now been almost 3 months since the end of the water cure and still 99%RH from all 3 probes
-The RH in the gym was about 50% and is now 30% for about a month already. Temp. of gym has been around 70 F
Questions:
-Is it normal to still have 99% while other test types have shown a drop?
-Are the probes malfunctioning and should I have waited longer prior to installing them?
-Should I go ahead and install another probe to be sure of the readings?

Thanks.]]> Conditions:
-New 2500sq.ft. slab 6" thick installed over vapor barrier over 12" gravel foundation.
-trowel finished with no other products added (no sealer or other)
-installed 3 RH probes at 40% depth after 1 month of pour. Sensors read 97% after 1 hour and 99% ever since.
-Its now been almost 3 months since the end of the water cure and still 99%RH from all 3 probes
-The RH in the gym was about 50% and is now 30% for about a month already. Temp. of gym has been around 70 F
Questions:
-Is it normal to still have 99% while other test types have shown a drop?
-Are the probes malfunctioning and should I have waited longer prior to installing them?
-Should I go ahead and install another probe to be sure of the readings?

Thanks.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Congrats-Eaadams-on-your-new-milestone Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:05:52 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Congrats-Eaadams-on-your-new-milestone

Evan, I think I can speak for everyone here at the CC Solutions world headquarters, Wagner, and our distinguished forum members when I say we truly enjoy your input, wisdom and guidance here on the forum.

Looking forward to the next 250 posts! ]]>

Evan, I think I can speak for everyone here at the CC Solutions world headquarters, Wagner, and our distinguished forum members when I say we truly enjoy your input, wisdom and guidance here on the forum.

Looking forward to the next 250 posts! ]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-learned-something-new-today Thu, 03 Nov 2011 04:09:09 +0000 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-I-learned-something-new-today
I freaked out and said oh no oh no henny penny the sky is falling. I now feel pretty dumb.

After some research the GC pointed out that the side of the gym that is reading high has a masonry wall. On that side of the room, the concrete is 14" thick to support the masonry wall. So duh it isn't dry.

Anyway, I have to figure out how to read walls now before bid. Not sure how but I will have to pull out this projects plans and teach myself a new skill.

Learn something new every day. Shows why we have GC's. They do have the whole building in mind.

Now I have to find out if the sealing company can do the whole bead blast and seal and top coat 12' of concrete without having to level the whole floor.]]>
I freaked out and said oh no oh no henny penny the sky is falling. I now feel pretty dumb.

After some research the GC pointed out that the side of the gym that is reading high has a masonry wall. On that side of the room, the concrete is 14" thick to support the masonry wall. So duh it isn't dry.

Anyway, I have to figure out how to read walls now before bid. Not sure how but I will have to pull out this projects plans and teach myself a new skill.

Learn something new every day. Shows why we have GC's. They do have the whole building in mind.

Now I have to find out if the sealing company can do the whole bead blast and seal and top coat 12' of concrete without having to level the whole floor.]]>