http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/ Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:21:22 +0000 MyBB http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=392 Fri, 31 May 2013 17:03:35 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=392
The GC took the testing out of my scope in our contract. I din't catch that.

Now I am down $1250 for 10 probes of testing.

Wish this had happened on Monday not today.

Finishing off this crap week strong! ]]>
The GC took the testing out of my scope in our contract. I din't catch that.

Now I am down $1250 for 10 probes of testing.

Wish this had happened on Monday not today.

Finishing off this crap week strong! ]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=391 Fri, 31 May 2013 12:00:03 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=391 We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=390 Thu, 30 May 2013 19:33:41 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=390
Then one day, a sales person from a (not to be mentioned) moisture barrier concrete additive company somehow came into the picture and promised everyone there would never be a moisture related flooring problem if they use his company’s product in the concrete mix. And of course, they would save thousands of dollars on the job.

Everyone was amazed… the architect, the managing GC, the GC! And they told the owners of this wonderful, amazing product that would eliminate all their moisture problems! The salesman told them so. And the project moved along and the concrete was placed with this amazing, inexpensive additive inside.

After several months, it was time to level the floor and install the expensive floor system. And the knowledgeable leveling contractor asked what the RH levels were. To that, the GC replied, “95%, but we expect the levels to come down next week before you install the leveling underlayment.” The installer replied, “I’m not installing my leveler until the RH levels are at or below the manufacturer’s specs!” That shocked everyone in the meeting. How could someone be so bold?

The leveling contractor reminded them that many months ago, he warned them that the amazing, miracle moisture barrier additive was not the way to go, but alas, they did not listen to him. They only listened to the nice salesman and their wallets. Now, they would be forced to deal with the many unknown issues such as compatibility with the right installation products, including the proper moisture mitigation system, not to mention the additional costs and delays.

And where did the company go? Well, they said there must have been a misunderstanding because their product “stops moisture”, not “moisture vapor emissions” or “reduce RH”. Therefore, their warranty did not apply.

This story is still unfolding, and I do not know where it will go. All I know is that when someone promises me that they can solve or fix my problems, and for less than someone else’s solution, I have learned to walk away from the nice salesmen.]]>
Then one day, a sales person from a (not to be mentioned) moisture barrier concrete additive company somehow came into the picture and promised everyone there would never be a moisture related flooring problem if they use his company’s product in the concrete mix. And of course, they would save thousands of dollars on the job.

Everyone was amazed… the architect, the managing GC, the GC! And they told the owners of this wonderful, amazing product that would eliminate all their moisture problems! The salesman told them so. And the project moved along and the concrete was placed with this amazing, inexpensive additive inside.

After several months, it was time to level the floor and install the expensive floor system. And the knowledgeable leveling contractor asked what the RH levels were. To that, the GC replied, “95%, but we expect the levels to come down next week before you install the leveling underlayment.” The installer replied, “I’m not installing my leveler until the RH levels are at or below the manufacturer’s specs!” That shocked everyone in the meeting. How could someone be so bold?

The leveling contractor reminded them that many months ago, he warned them that the amazing, miracle moisture barrier additive was not the way to go, but alas, they did not listen to him. They only listened to the nice salesman and their wallets. Now, they would be forced to deal with the many unknown issues such as compatibility with the right installation products, including the proper moisture mitigation system, not to mention the additional costs and delays.

And where did the company go? Well, they said there must have been a misunderstanding because their product “stops moisture”, not “moisture vapor emissions” or “reduce RH”. Therefore, their warranty did not apply.

This story is still unfolding, and I do not know where it will go. All I know is that when someone promises me that they can solve or fix my problems, and for less than someone else’s solution, I have learned to walk away from the nice salesmen.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=389 Fri, 24 May 2013 11:53:43 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=389 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=388 Fri, 10 May 2013 12:13:50 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=388
I have multiple GC's hounding me to quote them work. I live in California. Seems crazy.

I must have gotten onto some 'list'. Thanks google.]]>
I have multiple GC's hounding me to quote them work. I live in California. Seems crazy.

I must have gotten onto some 'list'. Thanks google.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=387 Mon, 06 May 2013 23:42:07 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=387
I have to find out from the GC how they did this. The GC is SUNDT. I don't know what magic they have but I want some. Amazing results. All these results are by an [ICRI] certified 3rd party tester.

All I can say is it has to be the rooms internal RH. Must have allowed the slab to dry. HVAC has only been on two weeks but building was closed up all winter.

Slab Grade On
Slab Construction Closed, drying from the top only
Slab Thickness (inches) 6 Inches
Data provided by contractor/owner
Slab Age Less than 1 year
Drill Depth (per ASTM standard) 2.4 Inches
Was HVAC Operational? End of April, 2013
Anticipated Floor Installation Date Mid-May, 2013

Interior Ambient Conditions
Ambient Temperature : 67 F
Interior RH (RH): 29 %
Tramex Concrete Encounter Meter: 4.5 - 5.25
Subfloor Surface Temperature : 71 F


Test No. / Probe No. / Probe RH % / Probe Temperature / Surface pH
1 / S431943 / 76% / 70F / 10
2 / S432311 / 75% / 71F / 10
3 / S432359 / 75% / 70F / 11
4 / S432020 / 75% / 71F / 10
5 / S432055 / 75% / 70F / 10
6 / S431980 / 76% / 70F / 10
7 / S431960 / 75% / 70F / 10
8 / S432420 / 77% / 70F / 10
9 / S432410 / 79% / 70F / 10]]>
I have to find out from the GC how they did this. The GC is SUNDT. I don't know what magic they have but I want some. Amazing results. All these results are by an [ICRI] certified 3rd party tester.

All I can say is it has to be the rooms internal RH. Must have allowed the slab to dry. HVAC has only been on two weeks but building was closed up all winter.

Slab Grade On
Slab Construction Closed, drying from the top only
Slab Thickness (inches) 6 Inches
Data provided by contractor/owner
Slab Age Less than 1 year
Drill Depth (per ASTM standard) 2.4 Inches
Was HVAC Operational? End of April, 2013
Anticipated Floor Installation Date Mid-May, 2013

Interior Ambient Conditions
Ambient Temperature : 67 F
Interior RH (RH): 29 %
Tramex Concrete Encounter Meter: 4.5 - 5.25
Subfloor Surface Temperature : 71 F


Test No. / Probe No. / Probe RH % / Probe Temperature / Surface pH
1 / S431943 / 76% / 70F / 10
2 / S432311 / 75% / 71F / 10
3 / S432359 / 75% / 70F / 11
4 / S432020 / 75% / 71F / 10
5 / S432055 / 75% / 70F / 10
6 / S431980 / 76% / 70F / 10
7 / S431960 / 75% / 70F / 10
8 / S432420 / 77% / 70F / 10
9 / S432410 / 79% / 70F / 10]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=386 Mon, 06 May 2013 21:44:18 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=386
It focused mainly on generic flooring inspection issues, which I found quite useful and it was highly informative. The instructors were well informed and resourced. However, the practical side of the testing was brushed over more briefly.

What was interesting was the reactions of the attendees- mainly contractors and flooring shop owners. Some of the finer details of the procedures, particularly F2170, and liability implications of not following them were greeted with responses that ranged from steely resolve to abject horror.

Hopefully I don't sound too smug, just because I was one of only two ICRI-certified players in the room (not to mention my invaluable schooling from you fine people here on this forum).

But as you struggle with some of the joys of moisture-testing and the lack of awareness you come across in your neck of the woods, remember, you're still way ahead of us Antipodeans !

In fact...there may be a spot open for some skills training if anyone's interested... (self-funded of course, although I can subsidise with accommodation and beer).]]>
It focused mainly on generic flooring inspection issues, which I found quite useful and it was highly informative. The instructors were well informed and resourced. However, the practical side of the testing was brushed over more briefly.

What was interesting was the reactions of the attendees- mainly contractors and flooring shop owners. Some of the finer details of the procedures, particularly F2170, and liability implications of not following them were greeted with responses that ranged from steely resolve to abject horror.

Hopefully I don't sound too smug, just because I was one of only two ICRI-certified players in the room (not to mention my invaluable schooling from you fine people here on this forum).

But as you struggle with some of the joys of moisture-testing and the lack of awareness you come across in your neck of the woods, remember, you're still way ahead of us Antipodeans !

In fact...there may be a spot open for some skills training if anyone's interested... (self-funded of course, although I can subsidise with accommodation and beer).]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=385 Thu, 02 May 2013 13:18:43 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=385
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNo2cB_ZO...iXD0ogXx6L

Hope people find it helpful. I've already used it twice today to find the 'right' video.]]>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNo2cB_ZO...iXD0ogXx6L

Hope people find it helpful. I've already used it twice today to find the 'right' video.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=384 Thu, 02 May 2013 12:14:33 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=384
BTW: Jason - thanks for scaring the pants off my foreman. Now it looks like he will be going to WOC next year for ICRI certification.]]>
BTW: Jason - thanks for scaring the pants off my foreman. Now it looks like he will be going to WOC next year for ICRI certification.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=383 Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:55:34 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=383 We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=382 Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:20:00 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=382 We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> We appreciate your valuable contribution to our Concrete Moisture Measurement forum and look forward to your upcoming posts between now and the next level.

All the best,
Admin]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=381 Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:25:17 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=381
Carl Howard found out.]]>
Carl Howard found out.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=380 Tue, 09 Apr 2013 06:15:55 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=380
I am on a job in North Carolina. I drilled (3) 3/8" and used a hanger with a hook shape at the end to find the depth of the slab. I found 6", 6.5" and close to 7". I was willing to assume that the tests needed to be based on 6.5". It was a 5 probe job, when I got around to the front of the store, I figured I should do one more depth test between my probe hole and the edge of the slab, just in case. I was about 7' from the exterior wall. I found that the slab was only 4" deep here.

This was all weird to me because these chain store that I test most often, are almost ALWAYS 5". Also, now I am questioning all of my probe depths, except for #5 becasue the depth test was within a couple feet of the probe hole. I have always made it a point to not do my depth test near my probe holes, because I was afraid the compromise in the moisture barrier would affect the test. I do fill the holes with epoxy when I am done. Should I go back and drill depth holes near all of my probes, just to be sure? If so, how close can/should I be to my probe holes with my depth tests?]]>
I am on a job in North Carolina. I drilled (3) 3/8" and used a hanger with a hook shape at the end to find the depth of the slab. I found 6", 6.5" and close to 7". I was willing to assume that the tests needed to be based on 6.5". It was a 5 probe job, when I got around to the front of the store, I figured I should do one more depth test between my probe hole and the edge of the slab, just in case. I was about 7' from the exterior wall. I found that the slab was only 4" deep here.

This was all weird to me because these chain store that I test most often, are almost ALWAYS 5". Also, now I am questioning all of my probe depths, except for #5 becasue the depth test was within a couple feet of the probe hole. I have always made it a point to not do my depth test near my probe holes, because I was afraid the compromise in the moisture barrier would affect the test. I do fill the holes with epoxy when I am done. Should I go back and drill depth holes near all of my probes, just to be sure? If so, how close can/should I be to my probe holes with my depth tests?]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=379 Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:53:21 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=379
Slab poured January 10 2012
engineered hardwoods installed April 14 2012
Dark spots/orange peel texture begins to appear in July 2012

Mold present under floor. 4 calcium chloride tests with results of 7 (carpeted room) 16, 16 and 17 were completed December 2012

The builder stated the timing of construction was to blame. Our floors were removed February 22 2013 and small surface cracks were present which seems to indicate a cured slab.

Wagoner RH metered were placed and the first set of readings taken 40 days after the floor was removed and the slab had been exposed ... readings were upper 80s.

One core was taken from our slab in February showing a vapor barrier but uneven bottom of slab. The core was tested and showed strong and normal composition. Water tables were done outside and normal, cameras were run through pipes and no leaks.

Any thoughts on what is going on or what to do? Builder is suggesting re-install once acceptable levels are achieved. We are currently re-doing calcium chloride tests.

Thank you in advance.]]>
Slab poured January 10 2012
engineered hardwoods installed April 14 2012
Dark spots/orange peel texture begins to appear in July 2012

Mold present under floor. 4 calcium chloride tests with results of 7 (carpeted room) 16, 16 and 17 were completed December 2012

The builder stated the timing of construction was to blame. Our floors were removed February 22 2013 and small surface cracks were present which seems to indicate a cured slab.

Wagoner RH metered were placed and the first set of readings taken 40 days after the floor was removed and the slab had been exposed ... readings were upper 80s.

One core was taken from our slab in February showing a vapor barrier but uneven bottom of slab. The core was tested and showed strong and normal composition. Water tables were done outside and normal, cameras were run through pipes and no leaks.

Any thoughts on what is going on or what to do? Builder is suggesting re-install once acceptable levels are achieved. We are currently re-doing calcium chloride tests.

Thank you in advance.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=378 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:39:30 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=378
Also the last job I did for them was a 35,000 sf space that had been empty for a long time. Well we had a downpour, rare in El Paso, that lasted 45 minutes.
It was then that in the rear an incredible amount of water leaked onto the floor in the back section. Not near where I had 3 sites.

So I now see why they have me do them all now. RH for deep and MVER in case the top has moisture not evident deeper down. Boy, I am getting an education here!]]>
Also the last job I did for them was a 35,000 sf space that had been empty for a long time. Well we had a downpour, rare in El Paso, that lasted 45 minutes.
It was then that in the rear an incredible amount of water leaked onto the floor in the back section. Not near where I had 3 sites.

So I now see why they have me do them all now. RH for deep and MVER in case the top has moisture not evident deeper down. Boy, I am getting an education here!]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=377 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 09:46:06 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=377
  Chap6 INSTALLING A SUBFLOOR OVER CONCRETE.pdf (Size: 233.49 KB / Downloads: 3) ]]>
  Chap6 INSTALLING A SUBFLOOR OVER CONCRETE.pdf (Size: 233.49 KB / Downloads: 3) ]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=376 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:29:00 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=376
Zip. Nada. The big donut.

The product was a roll on. Broom the slab well and spray or roll our wonder fluid on. All your troubles will be gone.

Then after a couple months the floor tiles curled and cupped. Some were replaced. They continued to fail. The flooring manufacturer was called in. RH was high, but that is expected because there was a sealer on top.

They couldn't grind to test the MVER, but the sealer was taking care of that anyway, right?

MVER tests weren't accepted over the sealer either. They didn't count said the sealer rep.

But the floor was failing!

'Flooring problem', said the sealer company. Or the pH is too high. Maybe the glue was bad. Our sealer is proven and it works.

The flooring manufacturer walked away also. The glue was broken down. They have no reports of a bad batch. Something was attacking it. Perhaps poor maintenance. Was the building conditioned during install?

People started to question the install. Was it too cold? Was the air RH acceptable? Did the glue go down at the right rate? Was it allowed to flash off properly?

Meanwhile the customer was furious! Why wasn't the floor repaired? The architect had doubts also. New jobs were not being given to the installer while this was being figured out.

This kind of thing drags out for years typically. Then finally the owner and the installer (the two closest to the job) make an agreement to just rip it out and make repairs. Sometimes with a new floor covering, sometimes they patchwork it in piecemeal.

I have seen this happen far too often to clients I know. The lure of the fast and inexpensive solution is very strong.

New technology! Only we have it! Guaranteed performance!

Sounds like a weight loss pill or a new hair tonic doesn't it? How many pills are there on the market that promise you the moon, and are 'doctor approved' and 'independently tested and proven to work'?

How many pills are 'guaranteed or your money back"?

I wish I had the right words to expose these products for what they are. I wish I could show clients that they don't work, they don't stand the test of time, they are a huge financial risk.... I try! I try so hard...

But the lure is so great.....]]>
Zip. Nada. The big donut.

The product was a roll on. Broom the slab well and spray or roll our wonder fluid on. All your troubles will be gone.

Then after a couple months the floor tiles curled and cupped. Some were replaced. They continued to fail. The flooring manufacturer was called in. RH was high, but that is expected because there was a sealer on top.

They couldn't grind to test the MVER, but the sealer was taking care of that anyway, right?

MVER tests weren't accepted over the sealer either. They didn't count said the sealer rep.

But the floor was failing!

'Flooring problem', said the sealer company. Or the pH is too high. Maybe the glue was bad. Our sealer is proven and it works.

The flooring manufacturer walked away also. The glue was broken down. They have no reports of a bad batch. Something was attacking it. Perhaps poor maintenance. Was the building conditioned during install?

People started to question the install. Was it too cold? Was the air RH acceptable? Did the glue go down at the right rate? Was it allowed to flash off properly?

Meanwhile the customer was furious! Why wasn't the floor repaired? The architect had doubts also. New jobs were not being given to the installer while this was being figured out.

This kind of thing drags out for years typically. Then finally the owner and the installer (the two closest to the job) make an agreement to just rip it out and make repairs. Sometimes with a new floor covering, sometimes they patchwork it in piecemeal.

I have seen this happen far too often to clients I know. The lure of the fast and inexpensive solution is very strong.

New technology! Only we have it! Guaranteed performance!

Sounds like a weight loss pill or a new hair tonic doesn't it? How many pills are there on the market that promise you the moon, and are 'doctor approved' and 'independently tested and proven to work'?

How many pills are 'guaranteed or your money back"?

I wish I had the right words to expose these products for what they are. I wish I could show clients that they don't work, they don't stand the test of time, they are a huge financial risk.... I try! I try so hard...

But the lure is so great.....]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=375 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:57:16 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=375
Just think how many millions of dollars could be saved if decision makers would spend a few hundred dollars on "baseline" RH testing before budgets were established...just to get a better idea what floor covering was best suited for the environment, and what corrective action may be required, if any. This does not mean disregard the need to conduct ASTM compliant testing per manufacturer specs, just know what's in the water before you take the plunge!

Such a simple concept, sadly overlooked.]]>
Just think how many millions of dollars could be saved if decision makers would spend a few hundred dollars on "baseline" RH testing before budgets were established...just to get a better idea what floor covering was best suited for the environment, and what corrective action may be required, if any. This does not mean disregard the need to conduct ASTM compliant testing per manufacturer specs, just know what's in the water before you take the plunge!

Such a simple concept, sadly overlooked.]]> http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=374 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:09:36 -0500 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=374 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=373 Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:19:14 -0600 http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/showthread.php?tid=373
The Wagner booth was excellent and busy! Great show guys, I'm sure you generated a lot of buzz. Hopefully in a couple of days you will be awarded Most Innovative Product of the Year!!!

The outside stuff wasn't nearly as good as in years past. No really cool concrete sculptures or active designer concrete going on. Some reps had grinders people could run, that's about it.

I met some new people, some from out of the country that I need to keep in touch with now. Some that I renewed old relationships over a beer or two. All in all it was time well spent.

And then there's Evan.... You know him as EAAdams....

We've never met, but I was on the bus headed back to the hotel and a gentleman walked past me to take a seat in the back of the bus and I noticed his name tag said Adams.... Could it be? I knew he would be in Vegas, what was the chance we would be on the same bus?

So I emailed him.... "Are you in Vegas?"

He replied he was... On the bus back to his hotel.

I waited until we got off before I approached him and said Hi Evan!!! He was surely wondering how I knew his name.... We chatted a bit and I had hoped our schedules would mesh where we could get a drink but it didn't work out.

That's the problem with Vegas. So many people to meet up with and so little time to do it. Plus I like to have some time to see the sights as long as I am out there.

Hope your trip back was a good one Evan, and it was good to see you! ]]>
The Wagner booth was excellent and busy! Great show guys, I'm sure you generated a lot of buzz. Hopefully in a couple of days you will be awarded Most Innovative Product of the Year!!!

The outside stuff wasn't nearly as good as in years past. No really cool concrete sculptures or active designer concrete going on. Some reps had grinders people could run, that's about it.

I met some new people, some from out of the country that I need to keep in touch with now. Some that I renewed old relationships over a beer or two. All in all it was time well spent.

And then there's Evan.... You know him as EAAdams....

We've never met, but I was on the bus headed back to the hotel and a gentleman walked past me to take a seat in the back of the bus and I noticed his name tag said Adams.... Could it be? I knew he would be in Vegas, what was the chance we would be on the same bus?

So I emailed him.... "Are you in Vegas?"

He replied he was... On the bus back to his hotel.

I waited until we got off before I approached him and said Hi Evan!!! He was surely wondering how I knew his name.... We chatted a bit and I had hoped our schedules would mesh where we could get a drink but it didn't work out.

That's the problem with Vegas. So many people to meet up with and so little time to do it. Plus I like to have some time to see the sights as long as I am out there.

Hope your trip back was a good one Evan, and it was good to see you! ]]>