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The big donut
03-21-2013, 07:29 PM,
#1
The big donut
That's what the mitigation product manufacturer is contributing to a major failure of their product.

Zip. Nada. The big donut.

The product was a roll on. Broom the slab well and spray or roll our wonder fluid on. All your troubles will be gone.

Then after a couple months the floor tiles curled and cupped. Some were replaced. They continued to fail. The flooring manufacturer was called in. RH was high, but that is expected because there was a sealer on top.

They couldn't grind to test the MVER, but the sealer was taking care of that anyway, right?

MVER tests weren't accepted over the sealer either. They didn't count said the sealer rep.

But the floor was failing!

'Flooring problem', said the sealer company. Or the pH is too high. Maybe the glue was bad. Our sealer is proven and it works.

The flooring manufacturer walked away also. The glue was broken down. They have no reports of a bad batch. Something was attacking it. Perhaps poor maintenance. Was the building conditioned during install?

People started to question the install. Was it too cold? Was the air RH acceptable? Did the glue go down at the right rate? Was it allowed to flash off properly?

Meanwhile the customer was furious! Why wasn't the floor repaired? The architect had doubts also. New jobs were not being given to the installer while this was being figured out.

This kind of thing drags out for years typically. Then finally the owner and the installer (the two closest to the job) make an agreement to just rip it out and make repairs. Sometimes with a new floor covering, sometimes they patchwork it in piecemeal.

I have seen this happen far too often to clients I know. The lure of the fast and inexpensive solution is very strong.

New technology! Only we have it! Guaranteed performance!

Sounds like a weight loss pill or a new hair tonic doesn't it? How many pills are there on the market that promise you the moon, and are 'doctor approved' and 'independently tested and proven to work'?

How many pills are 'guaranteed or your money back"?

I wish I had the right words to expose these products for what they are. I wish I could show clients that they don't work, they don't stand the test of time, they are a huge financial risk.... I try! I try so hard...

But the lure is so great.....
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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03-23-2013, 04:09 AM,
#2
RE: The big donut
"Spray & Pray Systems"... Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what you say, they never believe the voice of experience, but believe sales people who claim to solve/prevent problems for pennies per sf. The decision makers rarely read the fine print in the warranty, or in the technical literature. And, of course, it's fault of the installer, the glue, the flooring, the temperature, the full moon...you name it. These occurances will keep victimizing floor owners as long as sub-par products and sales people exist. Personally, I'd rather look back on my career someday and reflect on how I did right by my customers, than how many I deceived!
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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03-25-2013, 05:55 AM,
#3
RE: The big donut
What really shocks me, is even people who KNOW are swayed by the lure of a cheap and easy miracle spray.

People who have been bitten by the snake before.

People who have studied the issue for years.

High moisture concrete is very simple to deal with. It will cost time or money though.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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04-29-2013, 04:07 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-29-2013, 04:48 PM by eaadams.)
#4
RE: The big donut
I just got back from a trip where VAP was specified over such a system in new construction. The Architect has had so many bad problems he just keeps layering them on hoping one will stick.

Not sure what to do. This person has had HUGE issues over time and seeing him switch out one spray and pray system for another just doesn't make sense.

He said it was his structural engineer. ... lazy bums

JD & JK - check out the 'comments' section of this blog post.

http://www.concreteconstruction.net/blog...tId=108482

Any help would be appreciated.
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04-29-2013, 05:21 PM,
#5
RE: The big donut
Hmmm. I was denied access with the link. Did I understand that they keep "layering" mitigation products on top of each other????Huh
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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04-29-2013, 05:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-29-2013, 05:27 PM by eaadams.)
#6
RE: The big donut
You understand correctly.

link corrected: http://www.concreteconstruction.net/blogs/postdetails.aspx?BlogId=concreteinsights&postId=108482
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04-29-2013, 05:48 PM,
#7
RE: The big donut
I was able to access the blog but unfortunately have to go back to read all the comments in sequence later.

That being said, my only comment (if I'm grasping this altogether right) is that it sounds like they're not shot blasting or grinding the failed product off before applying layer upon layer of different remediation product.Huh

If so, it's like painting over a bad paint job with a different paint hoping that the top coat holds...it ain't happenin! They're in for failure after failure after failure.....every layer is only as good as the bond of the product in direct contact with the concrete.

Either someone is not reading the directions, or sales people are telling them something like "it's just like Ardex, but you don't have to prep"
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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04-29-2013, 06:18 PM,
#8
RE: The big donut
The blog is on roll on spray on stuff.

Comment on the vap thing is separate. But probably related since both vaporlock and barrier one are active comentators
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04-29-2013, 06:48 PM,
#9
RE: The big donut
I tried to post a comment but I couldn't... I hit 'submit' and it doesn't do anything... I was going to post:

I still have unanswered questions:

Is there a single flooring or adhesive manufacturer recognizing a slab tested by ASTM D-5084? And is each pour of a slab actually tested or is there one blanket test that covers all slabs poured?

Can a silicate treated slab (topical or integral) be tested using methods recognized by any major flooring or adhesive manufacturer?

I ask because when I test slabs treated integrally my MVER tests are higher than the same slab without the admix. And I cannot perform ASTM F-1869 on a topically treated slab without damaging the installation.

Therefore these treatment systems are unable to be proven in the field, and as far as I know, unaccepted by the flooring and adhesive manufacturers.

That leaves the owner and installer at great risk in the case of a failure.


I wrote to Bill to see if he could get my comment in.... Wink
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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04-29-2013, 08:16 PM,
#10
RE: The big donut
I get a message that I am not authorized.
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