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A most unfortunate flooring failure!

#31
(11-26-2012, 02:40 PM)rapidrhrep Wrote:  
(11-19-2012, 01:58 PM)eaadams Wrote:  No don't waste time marketing to subs. It has to be in the specs. That is the marketing mistake Wagner makes.

EA EA EA, there arent many times I have to disagree with you, but my question is this, "how do you eat a sandwich?" response: "one bite at a time."

Bah now look at what you made me do:
[Image: A8bCcewCIAE891t.jpg:small]

Yes that tape measure is metric and imperial.

Yes those are hearts on the tray.

Yes it was de-lish. Gobble Gobble
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#32
That looks like a fine sandwich! With a Diet Pepsi.

I had a salesman buy me lunch long ago and I ordered a Grilled Salmon sandwich and he ordered a large order of deep fried cheese curds, large order of deep fried onion rings, and a half pound burger with a half pound of ham piled on top.

Then he ordered a diet cola to go with it. Huh
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#33
Yea I gave up real coke for my partner. We figured out what 120cal was a few times a day. A killer.
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#34
I have been on both sides of this fence, as an installer and as a shop owner. I have had my Rapid RH Meter for about 5 years, and I love having it at my disposal, but realistically as an installer, we don't get paid to leave one jobsite in one area of the city to go spend a half a day testing in another area of the city. There is a cost involved in testing concrete moisture. Sure, all the purists can say that the cost of doing or sending someone to do a moisture test (along with the cost of the sensors, etc,) is akin to purchasing an insurance policy on the installation, if it's not in the bid spec, you are incurring higher costs than the competition you're bidding against. As an installer, why would you spend an additional $60-80 on sensors and a half a day of downtime to go and test a jobsite before the installation date? Installers are already on the lowest end of the flooring pay scale and are the least able to take the hit. Until moisture testing is clearly written into the general contractor's scope of work, it will continue to be hit-and-miss. If I have a job larger than about 2000-3000 square yards, I will do the testing myself at no charge for my own peace of mind, but there is a profitability cut-off that I have to realistically respect.
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#35
I understand where you're coming from. It can add enough cost to lose a job if price is the only consideration. Having worked for Ardex, an installer and now as a self employed testing technician, I have always contended there needs to be more communicaiton between installers and GCs during the bidding process.

I have only seen a few specs that didn't require testing, so the GC needs to inform ALL flooring bidders that the cost needs to be included. However, I have personally never seen a bid invitation stating that. I always had to call to inquire. Bet a lot of installers just let it go, then try to get the change order later after things are underway.

To me when everyone doesn't face the issue head on, it's like trying to ignore the elephant in your living room.
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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#36
(12-02-2012, 05:40 PM)ceflooring Wrote:  I have been on both sides of this fence, as an installer and as a shop owner. I have had my Rapid RH Meter for about 5 years, and I love having it at my disposal, but realistically as an installer, we don't get paid to leave one jobsite in one area of the city to go spend a half a day testing in another area of the city. There is a cost involved in testing concrete moisture. Sure, all the purists can say that the cost of doing or sending someone to do a moisture test (along with the cost of the sensors, etc,) is akin to purchasing an insurance policy on the installation, if it's not in the bid spec, you are incurring higher costs than the competition you're bidding against. As an installer, why would you spend an additional $60-80 on sensors and a half a day of downtime to go and test a jobsite before the installation date? Installers are already on the lowest end of the flooring pay scale and are the least able to take the hit. Until moisture testing is clearly written into the general contractor's scope of work, it will continue to be hit-and-miss. If I have a job larger than about 2000-3000 square yards, I will do the testing myself at no charge for my own peace of mind, but there is a profitability cut-off that I have to realistically respect.

This thinking just blows my mind.

As an installer, you are supposed to verify you are installing according to the product specs. You are supposed to use the correct adhesive trowel. You are supposed to allow the flooring to acclimate. You are supposed to install within a specified range of temperature and humidity.

It takes less than 10 minutes to install a Wagner probe. And about 10 seconds to read one.

I can tell you that if you have a floor fail due to moisture or alkalinity and you installed it without following the manufacturer's specifications you can be deemed liable for the failure.

Installers have to verify the concrete meets specs before installing the flooring. That's their job as the flooring professional.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#37
You're 100% right, JD. Installers need to raise their own bar when it comes to doing it right! You and I have certainly seen more than our share of failures, heh?

But if I'm understanding the problem, it's not if testing should be done, but who is responsible for covering the cost, as well as make sure all installers are playing on the same level playing field. This is where I see the communication breakdown between installers and GCs.

I'm often called in by installers to pre-construction meetings, only to find the GC is covering the cost. Sometimes the installer does.

If the GC is unable to commit to the task or the cost during the bidding process, the simplest solution is to include a disclaimer on all installer estimates to clarify whether or not testing is covered, along with a copy of the section from Div 3 or 9 (where ever they happen to include it). Throw it back at them and they'll figure it out.
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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#38
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all installers have to foot the bill for full ASTM testing. What I'm saying is all installers should be installing at least a few Wagners for their own knowledge.

If I were an installer I sure wouldn't believe anything any testing company told me without a little verification. That could be as little as watching them install the probes. But installing one or two of my own on a little job will either confirm or refute what I was being told.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#39
(12-03-2012, 01:24 PM)CCR Wrote:  But if I'm understanding the problem, it's not if testing should be done, but who is responsible for covering the cost, as well as make sure all installers are playing on the same level playing field. This is where I see the communication breakdown between installers and GCs.

I would also add Owner's Rep. Many public owner's reps have their own testing labs. Sometimes if you can get the inspector up to speed he will take this subject over. But, still, IMHO it is best specified in the testing section of the general conditions.

There is a big movement on in the spec'ing community to put both testing and mitigation in the same div9 spec. I've seen Architects in California say in the div9 spec 'perform testing as required by manufacturer and if slab tests beyond limits mitigate floor using XYZ product' When you bid on such a project you get chaos in bids. Imagine having an open ended mitigation section (pre-construction). You could be talking >$20 s/f.

I wouldn't let my fox guard the hen house; so, I wouldn't let the flooring installer, GC, or moisture mitigator test the slab.
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#40
Absolute verification is the precise reason I photograph the readout of every sensor placed with orange tape on the surface with the reading dates and sensor numbers. The images are submitted with my written report for all to review as needed. Haven't had one test disputed yet.
JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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