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Walgreen's Slabs

#51
FYI, this one was a redo, not sure why it is not that old of a standalone Walgreens. Now the one down the street is in a shopping center and has some serious issues, lumps and bumps all over under the vct. But no glue oozing. I'd bet if they threw down some new vct it would be just like this one. The Safeway store in there recently had some new larger format vinyl tile put in and it had bleeding issues as well. They had to redo it. I wonder if it is the same outfit installing these.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#52
Is there a Vapor retarder under the slab?
It seems the construction industry in the arrid states don't feel they need one. They are exempt to ASTM F710.
Rayt
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#53
They are exempt to ASTM F710? Please explain. What is it, the American Society of Testing Materials... except for Arid states.

I know a big problem in my southwest is also tilt-up. A lot of these type buildings are built via tilt up and they leave all sorts of nasty on the slab. Many of these compounds (silicates often) are bond breakers and drive PH high and will bond break your floor right off the concrete and turn the adhesive to goop.

I used to sell Safeway all their vinyl. They went to China and had my product copied and now they go direct with vendors. Safeway's in CA put a MMS on all their new slabs. They have learned that a single trip and fall lawsuit over a moisture bump pays for all the cost of sealing a floor. When they remodel it is policy that slabs are supposed to be sealed if new flooring is being installed. For installing remodel Safeway they have their own preferred installation companies. The one in N.Cal is the 2nd largest union labor shop around. (note I say labor, not contractor, Safeway supplies it's own material from China) But, on new construction it is low bid wins.
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#54
I don't think they even know what 2170 is out here. Nor do they care.

I was watching some new high end rental homes, kinda like condo's, going up near my house on the northeast side of town, and they just poured concrete over the dirt. Hope they are doing some vinyl because that surrounding area is really wet. But boy are they going up fast!
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#55
ASTM F710 states all concrete slabs should have a vapor retarder. In the arrid states they do not use them because they don't believe they need them. I reality they them worse than areas that have a lot of moisture. The moisture drive is based on temperature and humidity the higher the temperature and lower the humidity the faster the moisture is emitted. Moisture will travel to equilibrium.
Rayt
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#56
And you should point out that all soils should be considered 100% RH, no matter where the slab is poured.... There is plenty of moisture in the soil to cause havoc down the road.

NEVER put a moisture sensitive flooring over an unprotected slab without a proper functioning vapor retarder... Exclamation
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#57
Ray, yes I have heard that many times from quite alot of people/ er experts. This still does not explain why that vinyl is not blowing off the slab in the vet clinic. Unless of course that adhesive is the next best thing to Kosters .
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#58
Moisture can have an effect on the vinyl without damaging the adhesive. Consider a porous carpet on a wet slab, everything breathes and the moisture goes right through.
The adhesive would be affected by the alkalinity over time.

But I think you are onto something more than moisture at this point. Poor quality vinyl and poor installation is a good place to start. You are on the right track.

Now what will happen is the vinyl could be bad, and the install can be bad, but when you call the manufacturer and the installer, the FIRST thing they will do is test for moisture and if it is beyond the warranty parameters they will bail on you. Dodgy
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#59
(12-06-2011, 07:14 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Moisture can have an effect on the vinyl without damaging the adhesive. Consider a porous carpet on a wet slab, everything breathes and the moisture goes right through.
The adhesive would be affected by the alkalinity over time.

Dodgy

Your really comparing a porous carpet to a sheet vinyl dodgy? Hmmm I don't think any adhesive will stop shrinkage.



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Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
Reply

#60
The carpet example is valid for what it was used. Astm is moving towards a standard where the perm rating of anything on top of another thing. I.e. your vapor retarder needs to have lower permeance than the carpet, your mms needs to have a lower permiance than your vapor variety, if you want to use products that breathe use a carpet on top. (the real objective is anti floor covering industry to drive spec writers to polished / stained concrete - but flooring people are too busy fighting for table scraps)

Anyway it is valid. But always remember that moisture movement does NOT mean that it is still not a wonderful environment for mold.
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