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VCT Over CutBack
02-04-2014, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2014 10:31 AM by Ernesto.)
Post: #1
VCT Over CutBack
Bidding on some smaller commercial jobs now just cus it is slow in residential and he wants more money. I have not been doing commercial for quite awhile now so looking for feedback.
The building is old, vct is over cutback residue but stuck. We all know how iffy it is going over vct with new vct. I always write in a Rh test. Also stated if the reading is high the old vct gets demo'd as I've seen many a covered vct floor fail out here.
Product is Armstrong and they say you can go over one layer. Armstrong also highly reccommends an Rh test or meter or CaCl. Ha Ha Wondering if I should upcharge the install and throw in the Rh test free. These things are not cheap.
In my quote I always give links to the mans install requirements so they are somewhat educated . Hope I get this one as they are going to do three more buildings. Its a large moving rental company. hint hint.
Thoughts....

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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02-19-2014, 10:37 AM
Post: #2
RE: VCT Over CutBack
The thing to remember is that new VCT has a lower Perm Rating than old VCT. VCT has improved and made much more dense now. (still more C than V in VCT) So, while you can go two layers watch out if you are moving from brand to brand. Perhaps Armstrong is now more perm but usually the stuff is lower perm.

I often get people asking us to put sheet over VCT which is just a bad idea. VCT on VCT is borderline. Carpet over VCT is skim and go since Carpet breathes
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02-25-2014, 06:04 PM
Post: #3
RE: VCT Over CutBack
Some carpet does breathe... But that rubber backed stuff can be a real problem over VCT!! Big Grin

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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02-25-2014, 10:50 PM
Post: #4
RE: VCT Over CutBack
Yes that is vinyl backed carpet and should be treated as such. Tandus just changed their moisture requirements. Now they have no moisture limit, just a pH.... Yes I think we all get the game being played there
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02-26-2014, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 02-26-2014 07:11 AM by hausenheimer.)
Post: #5
RE: VCT Over CutBack
(02-25-2014 10:50 PM)eaadams Wrote:  Yes that is vinyl backed carpet and should be treated as such. Tandus just changed their moisture requirements. Now they have no moisture limit, just a pH.... Yes I think we all get the game being played there

Yeah it is a game, but it is a GREAT marketing advantage. I had a job where the product was being changed from Shaw to Tandus because they have high moisture. 20,000 sqft of flooring. That is a big sale for tandus, to provide a product they have always had.

No, the slab does not mee the pH requirements. But Tandus tech services says the fix is to use their $.03/sqft primer, then you are good to go. Much better than the $200,000 remediation solution that the owner was being presented with.

(02-04-2014 10:27 AM)Ernesto Wrote:  Bidding on some smaller commercial jobs now just cus it is slow in residential and he wants more money. I have not been doing commercial for quite awhile now so looking for feedback.
The building is old, vct is over cutback residue but stuck. We all know how iffy it is going over vct with new vct. I always write in a Rh test. Also stated if the reading is high the old vct gets demo'd as I've seen many a covered vct floor fail out here.
Product is Armstrong and they say you can go over one layer. Armstrong also highly reccommends an Rh test or meter or CaCl. Ha Ha Wondering if I should upcharge the install and throw in the Rh test free. These things are not cheap.
In my quote I always give links to the mans install requirements so they are somewhat educated . Hope I get this one as they are going to do three more buildings. Its a large moving rental company. hint hint.
Thoughts....

Vct over vct is fine. All of the manufacturers I have read installation manuals for approve this installation. If 1st layer vct is bonded well, everything should work fine. Remove loose tiles and proceed with confidence. I have sold and installed over 100,000 sqft in the past few years to a major parts retailer that has been using this method for over 20 years.

Just because adhesive is black does not mean it is cut-back. Just because cut-back was black and did not contain asbestos, does not mean all black vct adhesive is safe. Before you demo a large area of tile, if you need to, have the adhesive tested for asbestos. Make sure your proposals or contracts include verbiage along the lines of you not being liable for disturbances of hazardous materials and that by being instructed to proceed the customer is informing you that there are no hazardous materials that they are aware of. Big retail chains have deep pockets. You don't want to be the person that creates a hazardous condition without being covered up front.

BTW - You can also install vct over existing cut-back residues with some vct glues, without the need of mechanical removal such as bead-blasting.

Also, I always charge for RH testing. In my opinion, or at least in the Atlanta market, not testing the floor is the industry standard. If someone wants their floor tested, they need to pay for it. No freebies. This is what some of us do for a living. That being said, I will not lose a flooring bid over the moisture testing. I will drop the profit and add the testing.
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02-26-2014, 07:30 AM
Post: #6
RE: VCT Over CutBack
VCT over cutback, I am here in New York City and we come across this all the time. If you can determine the tile and it's the same brand tile (Armstrong to Armstrong) and the previous tile is installed down good you usually can proceed as long as your moisture(RH)/PH readings suffice. It can be a problem if there are loose tiles or an indication of adhesive residue at some of the tile joints then it may be better to demo the tiles and neutralize the old cut back with an approved floor patch(and you RH/PH readings or good.) The last thing you'd want to happen is you cover the old tile and for some reason the old cutback become re-emulsified and it reacts with the new adhesive and then it can be a huge problem. By all means take all the necessary precautions, it's better to be safe than sorry!
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02-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Post: #7
RE: VCT Over CutBack
No moisture limit but a pH limit? Tongue

As moisture moves through a slab the pH level can rise. So initially, you may have high moisture emission but a low (or relatively low pH especially if the surface is carbonated) pH reading.

Adding a second layer of flooring or a flooring with a very low permeability will often cause a build up of moisture and a corresponding increase in alkalinity at the adhesive bond horizon.

The flooring manufacturer then is called to investigate the subsequent failure, peels back the flooring, dips a test strip in the wet slimy adhesive and smugly states the pH is too high!!!

I've seen this happen all too often. Realistically we need to be concerned with the moisture in a slab first and foremost, because with low moisture, pH and/or alkalinity is not going to be an issue.

JD

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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02-27-2014, 03:02 PM
Post: #8
RE: VCT Over CutBack
(02-26-2014 04:37 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  No moisture limit but a pH limit? Tongue
Adding a second layer of flooring or a flooring with a very low permeability will often cause a build up of moisture and a corresponding increase in alkalinity at the adhesive bond horizon.

I've seen this happen all too often. Realistically we need to be concerned with the moisture in a slab first and foremost, because with low moisture, pH and/or alkalinity is not going to be an issue.

JD

Nice tips. Didn't get the job because either I was to expensive and the moisture testing cost. It was night work so I add more to the labor. I hate night work.
I sent them links to the armstrong site, but I guess they take the lowest bidder, not the smartest most educated bidder.

There is in fact a moisture limit JD, and I have seen this happen all over town in grocery stores and such.

Oh well, on to the next one.

Thanks all.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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