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Rhspec.com
08-22-2011, 04:42 PM
Post: #21
RE: Rhspec.com
Yes, broom finish it is Jason. Luckily my clients listen to me in which cases I have them buy a floater. Saves them tons of cash.

Now, if the hard troweled finish is not emitting, then I am golden doing a floating floor.

Speaking of rubber. My buddy Bill at NRFS sent me to look at some rubber in a Sports Authority. I do trip hazard repairs and replacements for fortune 500 companies, any flooring. They have isles of rubber all over. Manager claims vendor ruined the rubber. Vendor uses a sizzor lift to change light bulbs. When he turned his wheels they scuffed the rubber.

Looks like topical damage to the typical Joe, but what all it did was scuff the dirt off the top. The rubber in the whole place is filthy dirty. Managers says, it make it look like we have a dirty place.......lol
It's so dirty you can hardly distinguish the white speckles in it. The scuff marks made the colors actually show up. Looking along the wall shelving that over hangs the rubber, you can see nice clean virgin rubber with all the color flecks.

Manage wants the rubber replaced in front of the check out counters and some sections of isles. But that would look like day and night. The fix is worse than the remedy, well his remedy. My proposal is for him to clean the stinking rubber floor and the re-evaluate. Rubber ain't that easy to clean though.

Now I've been there before to fix bubbles. Last time...bout a year ago I fixed twenty. Now they are all back and more. The bubbles run the length of the whole building in a straight line. Hmmm, wonder what that is from. Cool

To me having rubber glued down in a retail store is just crazy.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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08-22-2011, 09:19 PM
Post: #22
RE: Rhspec.com
Rubber in a store is perfect!!! Easy to clean, soft under foot and durable as any floor can be! The same reasons it is so prized in hospitals.

Just mop it with profi and give it a light scrub and all is well....

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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08-23-2011, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 08-23-2011 08:52 AM by Ernesto.)
Post: #23
RE: Rhspec.com
(08-22-2011 09:19 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Rubber in a store is perfect!!! Easy to clean, soft under foot and durable as any floor can be! The same reasons it is so prized in hospitals.

Just mop it with profi and give it a light scrub and all is well....

Yea, if you have any sort of maintenance schedule. Rubber requires a steady maintenance schedule to keep up sanitary conditions. Hospitals will do it, gyms ....maybe but retails stores. don't look like it. Still not sure why they use rolls instead of tiles or interlocking tiles for ease of repair.
But can rubber pass the goose test? Big Grin


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Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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08-23-2011, 07:27 PM
Post: #24
RE: Rhspec.com
Sorry off track.

Now if emissions are not the worry. Why not just blast a surface, let it dry like them europeans, skimcoat and install flooring? Why the need for a product like Koester?

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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08-23-2011, 09:44 PM
Post: #25
RE: Rhspec.com
YES!!! You can open the surface and let it dry naturally!!! That is just wonderful! Less layers, fewer subs, bond right to concrete.

But you have to weigh the cost of delaying the building turnover vs mitigating. Many times it's cheaper to pay $6/sf to mitigate!

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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08-24-2011, 12:48 PM
Post: #26
RE: Rhspec.com
1st: re: the power troweled debate - remember that all concrete cracks. In the SW and West we still get a lot of slabs with 2" of sand under them. Those two things blow flooring right off the floor. Even if you have a ACI302.2 complaint floor the crack eliminates all this power trowing debate because a crack kills any benefit from the power troweling. The debate of a densification of the top layer has been proven false over and over again in court due to the failures of the densification companies (snake oil spray on at pour sealing companies).

2nd: Sports Authority: 20 years ago we were (until this year) the 1st reps for that flooring product in the USA. However that chain has been doing a lot of changes not sure if it still the same product. Perhaps they cheeped out and switched to an inferior product. I've seen that floor stick in incredibly wet conditions. It is put down with a one part moisture cured urethane. Every moisture failure I've ever seen has been due to an installer using his favorite adhesive not what is spec'd. Here is a corp memo on moisture testing: http://www.everlastsportssurfacing.com/p...isture.pdf Ernesto the author of that article is the guy you should be talking to. That isn't normal rubber. It is reground rubber. It has almost the porosity of carpet. Not like nora/mondo which are EXTREMELY sensitive to moisture. Rolls are superior with that product as tiles can cost as much as 50-100% more. Also when installed correctly the rolls look a LOT better. If the bubbles are in a straight line it sounds like a bad joint / crack prep. The cleaning can be hard for this product but once you train a guy to more or less flood the floor, use the profi, scrub, and shopvac up the residue, you can keep it clean. In Northern California all the new Sports Authorities have a vinyl type tile down and the only rubber is in the bike areas.

3rd: if you want to do concrete like the Europeans you need at least three things. MUCH better 2nd screeding. Evey slab over there gets an ardex top coat. But not like here. They almost do two placements. Secondly, you have to get rid of American lawyers. When they have moisture failures over there there isn't 1/10th the amount of litigation. 3rd: they get to use completely different adhesives over there, they are much more expert in using 2part urethanes like Mapei G19. G19 is illegal in California. Again Lawyers. Also, I've talked to our tech manager in France and he says that you never get rH tests done over there. They hardly ever get moisture tests done over there.

I have to go eat lunch but will post more later.
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08-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Post: #27
RE: Rhspec.com
The power troweled hard surface debate refers to the fact that the burned hard surface retains moisture longer than an open porous system. That's all. Wink

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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08-24-2011, 07:13 PM (This post was last modified: 08-24-2011 07:19 PM by Ernesto.)
Post: #28
RE: Rhspec.com
(08-24-2011 01:03 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  The power troweled hard surface debate refers to the fact that the burned hard surface retains moisture longer than an open porous system. That's all. Wink

Well JD, I had a long talk with another colleague yesterday and he has seen different issues than just retaining moisture. I think Jason has spoken with him as well. Probably plays into the blasting I guess.

On the Sports Authority, I had to bail. Got a call back to replace, regardless of cleaning, manager said they did clean. Yea, like years ago. I will not be a part of him throwing his light replacement guy under the bus to get a new floor. I mean, heck, how ya gonna change light bulbs with out driving a sizzor lift on it. I bet that floor is ten years old or more.

I thought the line of bubbles were a bad crack prep job, but when I cut open one bubble before I could see trowel lines in the adhesive. Probably where the installer did a glue run down the shot. Rubber is not stuck very well.

As far a #3, if you poured in 2 parts like they do I bet the lawyers would disappear. But you know how American construction is.

Down here in the old parts of town there's alot of colored concrete. A 2 pour, one the slab broom finish andf the the color steel troweled on top. Nice concrete, hardly a crack and smooth as glass. But nothing can stick to it. lol...dry as a bone and hard as steel.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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08-25-2011, 10:42 AM
Post: #29
RE: Rhspec.com
For scissor lifts, 95% of my contracting (vs sales) business is in spaces where scissor lifts are used to service lights. Tell this guy:
1) use Masonite under the lifts. (amazing what happens when that becomes a policy and the Masonite is on site)
2) imagine you are driving a car in deep gravel. Would you twist your tires real hard before moving? Or would you move forward turn your wheel a bit and make long arc's of turns? For me the latter. Don't torque the wheel. When you torque a wheel you can damage flooring surface and you can also displace the soft set adhesives.

Those two tips should help him out.

For the hard surface debate and retaining moisture ref this article (Kanare / CTL / Wagner did the testing in the store room where they tested for rH on slabs with different floor finishes): http://www.concreteconstruction.net/curl...ected.aspx

Of special note: "Howard Kanare, senior principal scientist at CTLGroup, Skokie, Ill., plans to conduct permeability studies on cores contributed by Sundt Construction, Phoenix, which were taken from a different floor slab placed outside the Phoenix area. When the study is complete, the results should help resolve questions about the effect ambient conditions have on the impermeability of densely troweled finishes."

I haven't seen that come out yet I don't think.
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08-25-2011, 04:35 PM
Post: #30
RE: Rhspec.com
Good point on the masonite... That would help a lot!!

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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