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Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
05-10-2011, 07:00 AM
Post: #11
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
I have no issue popping in some wagner rapid rh sensors, or even dropping some CaCl tests. But if there ain't no barrier under the slab, even if there is most of them have been comprimised either intentially of just by means of slab placement and spec. So the only thing I can do is snapshot tests. It's good to go down that day.

Nora and who ever else can warranty it all they want, it sitll means nothing cept for one day, maybe a week depending on weather.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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05-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Post: #12
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
Any warranty is based on parameters, so yes if there is no retarder then you don't even need to take RH or MVER readings before installing moisture sensitive flooring. It automatically FAILS with no testing required. Tongue

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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05-10-2011, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2011 04:42 PM by Ernesto.)
Post: #13
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
I know your kidding, but you still need to do moisture testing to ensure the levels are not to high to even start placing an MPM.

And thats not totally true. If the grading is right and runoff is diverted correctly many moisture sensitive floors can be installed without any problems, barrier or no barrier. Been there, done that.

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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05-10-2011, 05:14 PM
Post: #14
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
No I'm not kidding.
When there is no vapor retarder in place there will be no warranty by any flooring or glue manufacturer. I sure wouldn't install a floor if the manufacturer won't warrant it!

Consider all ground 100% RH because it doesn't matter if you are in the dessert or on a hill top, vapor is there.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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05-10-2011, 07:50 PM
Post: #15
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
(05-10-2011 04:27 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Any warranty is based on parameters, so yes if there is no retarder then you don't even need to take RH or MVER readings before installing moisture sensitive flooring. It automatically FAILS with no testing required. Tongue

But I still do it. Here in AZ if we put'r down, we have to warranty it against moisture issues. Not kidding!

I'm a gambler.Big Grin

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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05-11-2011, 06:33 AM
Post: #16
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
This is a point where we differ!

All manufacturers refer to ASTM F710 in their specs. A proper vapor retarder is required or all bets are off. So I would never allow a rubber or homogeneous vinyl floor, even a VCT floor could fail. But I came from a lifetime warranty company, whereas some folks figure if they can get through the first year their warranty is done. In fact I specified a MMS for a hospital in the midwest because the floor was at 93% RH and the flooring was sheet vinyl. The installer (large company) decided to just save the cost and install with no MMS. Ardex will not warrant their patch I told them, and there's a good chance this thing will fail in a year or two. I was told they planned to fix any bubbles for a year and then deny any warranty claims after that.

That's risky business there! The courts consider the flooring installer the expert and when the expert goes against industry advice and there is a failure, even three or five years later, the flooring installer can end up paying for the repair.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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05-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Post: #17
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
And so people should not have floorcovering if they do not have a barrier under the slab eh? I'll have to start telling people that. Then I guess all flooring retailers will go out of business.

So, tell me. When you put a homogeneous vinyl floor over a slab thats reading over the limit, what exactly is going to make the floor fail? Is it MVER or alkalinity? How much MVER will there be if the slab is running 93% rh?

Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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05-11-2011, 07:02 AM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2011 07:14 AM by CC Solutions.)
Post: #18
RE: Now you see why I don't want Bob on this site!
People can have any floor covering they desire! But the conditions for a proper installation must be met.

If the floor is too wet for vinyl, you may do alright with ceramic. Or maybe a stained floor. If the client needs to have rubber and the floor has no vapor retarder, then they will need an MMS installed. Somewhere along the line the moisture needs to be taken care of first.
It is my contention that the alkalinity causes the adhesive to fail, and the moisture can make some patches fail. If you put a good dry adhesive in a bucket of water for a month, nothing happens. If you put Feather on a chunk of Durock and submerse it in water for a few hours, it gets mushy. And a strong alkaline solutions breaks down many adhesives.


(05-11-2011 06:49 AM)Ernesto Wrote:  So, tell me. When you put a homogeneous vinyl floor over a slab thats reading over the limit, what exactly is going to make the floor fail? Is it MVER or alkalinity? How much MVER will there be if the slab is running 93% rh?



MVER and RH are NOT related. Consider this: a piece of concrete dried to 10% RH in an autoclave will have low moisture and when placed in a room with 40% RH ambient, the concrete will suck moisture from the air. It will have moisture in it yet but will have no MVER. Likewise if a high moisture slab is in a high moisture ambient, it can have a lot of moisture inside with no emission. Sooooooo.... A MVER test cannot accurately detect moisture in a slab. This is further complicated by tightly sealed concrete, dense surfaces, excessive curing, changes in ambient and temperature.

The Wagner RH probe will tell us what is in the slab, and then dozens of years of experience and testing tells us what the magic number is for no failures.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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