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Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
11-27-2012, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 11-27-2012 03:32 PM by eaadams.)
Post: #1
Exclamation Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Want to hear some of the largest A/D spec writers discuss spec writing re: concrete and moisture? It may be lively. The discussion is on how do we specify with regards to concrete and moisture. Past discussions had spec writers on the call from AECOM to Gensler to Populous & GC reps from McCarthy to Turner.

The discussion will be run by a group of people from CSI. CSI types could greatly benefit to hear from people like you. The subject matter is a discussion the entire industry needs to have. There isn't any one magic bullet and every firm seems to specify concrete moisture testing & mitigation differently. I would hope that if the industry can get behind specification standards, across the spectrum of Div3, Div7 & Div9, we can all avoid future headaches for concrete moisture and flooring.

I'm going to be listening and will certainly try to put my two cents in. My current war is on the continued faulty use of sand blotter layers in California. David Stutzman (http://www.conspectusinc.com/) is heading up the webinar and you can pre-read what he has to say on his blog. I find many of the comments informative. Many are from my competitors who seem to each have their own agenda to push. http://www.conspectusinc.com/blog/2012/1...ether.html


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Dates: 12/6/2012, 03:00 PM - 04:00 PM EST
Learn More: http://csinet.org/Main-Menu-Category/Com...eting.html
Type: Webinar

Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Group Leaders: David Stutzman, CSI, CCS, AIA, SCIP, LEED AP and Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS

There are many factors contributing to impervious flooring moisture-related failures. Accurate moisture testing, proper surface preparation, and potential moisture mitigation have been the topics of discussion for solving the problem. Can we agree on a uniform approach to ensure successful installations? Must the owner be prepared to pay for mitigation - both in time and cost - for every project? How can testing, preparation, and mitigation be best administered?

Come help explore and share project approaches to help improve chances for success.
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I have no financial stake in CSI or the presentation. In fact, I am not a participating member of CSI. I just hope spur comprehensive conversation on the topic.

-Evan Adams
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11-27-2012, 05:19 PM
Post: #2
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
This sounds great, and so needed!!! I am putting this on my calendar! I am going to the blog next to see what's ahead.

JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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12-01-2012, 09:36 AM
Post: #3
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Count me in.
They still use blotter layers by you? Huh

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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12-01-2012, 11:28 AM
Post: #4
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Yea blotter layers are very common in the South West. They are still common in California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, etc.... They go away when you get to weather. When you have rain / snow engineers become much better. When you get people building in dessert you get extremely lazy engineers. They never think that a water table 30' below surface could come up through sand.

But remember, I am in School Construction so most of my concrete contractors, GC's, and architects aren't the big guys. They are people who have grown into it and are in the public bid (read low bid) world so there is great resistance to re-writing specs or doing anything that might drive cost up.

As far as I can tell it is mostly due to lazy structural engineers. They pull boiler plate off the shelf. What really sucks is Architects who have in-house engineers. Those people are getting sued left and right for moisture failures now. When they sub out the engineering the moisture failure excuse is usually that the engineer didn't spec the floor and the architect didn't spec the concrete. Where owners get in big trouble is when they do the common design/build route where the owner builds and bids out their own schools and handle each Div as a separate bid package. Then the owner assumes all the risk and then they end up suing all the subs. These construction projects are also where silicates remain a huge problem.

If a A/D will sit down with me when writing specs I will intervene there but at bid time it is too late. I will RFI it out after bid if the GC will get me a contract before concrete pour. But it is a fine line. In California concrete design is an Engineering item. I can't provide "engineering advise or services" without being a licensed engineer. So all I can do is RFI that XYZ does not conform to ACI 302.2R and then, inevitably, I get an INCREDIBLY pissed off engineer on the phone who usually just found out he made a huge mistake and because I had to RFI via a GC the GC communicated it to owner and owner communicates it to architect and architect communicates to engineer. And you can imagine the owner doesn't want to pay to write correct after bid specs to fix such a mistake. However, NO concrete subs will catch this, they will do whatever the plans say without thought. Truly frustrating. I give those GC's who I know do it right or who do their own concrete a significant discount if I know I wont have to do this work after bid.

I think what is most interesting for purposes of this forum about a sand blotter layer is that from what I can tell it is MORE susceptible to producing a false Calcium Chloride result. It would be an interesting study to have a professional (CTL or equal) do and write up. As far as I can tell a slab with a sand blotter layer will show similar Calcium Chloride results but on failure will always have 99% rH. Since I got involved, I don't have paired RH/CaCl testing since we don't do CaCl testing anymore as we don't trust the test & it costs an extra trip of work. I also think the sand blotter layer with a silicate on top is just murder. It really produces a false low for CaCl testing.

Wow ... yea wrong side of the bed, I woke up thinking about this this morning. Sorry for the long post but it is a true scourge in my area.
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12-01-2012, 10:19 PM
Post: #5
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
The problem with the sand blotter is the potential for unlimited water gain under the slab.

Any little hole in the vapor barrier can let in a huge amount of water and that water can run anywhere through the sand.

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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12-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Post: #6
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
What did people think? I know Jason was on there.
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12-07-2012, 04:30 AM
Post: #7
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
I completely forgot about this!!!!!!!! Sad

JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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12-07-2012, 07:22 AM
Post: #8
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
I missed it also. Sad

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
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12-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Post: #9
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Sounds like it was a compilation of the Wagner webinars. We need something new like industry initiatives that will change the way testing is specified and conducted.

JK Nixon
Concrete Restoration Services, LLC
Pittsburgh, PA
http://www.rhtester.com
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12-07-2012, 07:54 AM
Post: #10
RE: Event: 12/6 CSI Topic: Floor Slab Moisture
Do you have Skype? You could do a broadcast from your office!! Tongue

JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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