• 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
**EXPERT Advice Needed** - VERY Moist Slab With LOTS of Vapor! What to do?

#11
Hello JD,

Yes the solution undergoes a complete ionic exchange. There are so many similar products out there they "call" densifiers with varying effacacy. They fail to fully migrate to achieve a meaningful reaction as it re-engages Ca(HO)2 with unreacted cement resdue from the original batching. These ICD solutions are not a just a pore filler.

As I said we are not flooring people but concrete permeability is what flooring contractors must address. I have been listening to this same issue for decades but I can only count on my hand the number of floors we have rectified the VT issue. These have ranged from 8 to 22 lbs and we know ICD (intercellular Cement Densification) works.

Warrentee is contingent on proper prep and application proceedure. A contractor from Texas 19 years ago reduced 22 lbs to 2 then applied a special coating for a gymnasium. This has not lifted. I have their letter of appreciation.

I have your E-mail so can I send test data and project info with pictures of where we use ICD for concrete, gunnite or cemetitious building envelope applications. Stopping moisture, oil, chemicals etc migrating through concrete is only part of the reason for what one would employ ICD.

Most of our concrete (until recently) is below grade and in direct contact with gas, ground salts, sewer etc etc but now building contractors are our growing market. The world of concrete is vast and very diversed.

Thank you for your response.

Best regards.

John Macdonald.
Reply

#12
Well ... I'll bite. I e-mailed you for more info.

I goggled "intercellular Cement Densification" and John you pop up a lot as the primary person using the phrase. Also interesting that you talk about Fly Ash. Which is interesting because I thought many mixes that integrate fly ash inhibits the typical silicate type sealing systems. So yours might be different if it can work with fly ash or I was incorrect in my knowledge.

There have been many new ways to do concrete to get moisture down. Usually it is a company trying to expand into the flooring world thinking there is $$$ there. I've had to be careful as a flooring guy and have to really put my foot down. But I've seen enough people sued at this point to know what is proven to work.

The only 'new thing' on the market that I believe might work is the new US Concrete ARIDUS concrete but it's cost is significant and to date they seem to be contractor driven not to the Engineer community. They talk about it in Concrete Construction this month.

Reply

#13
Ray, I understand your possition on W/c (we prefer W/b) but cement needs water to adequately react but OPC concrete without efficient hydration utilizes only about 1/2 the water/cement content @ 0.4 W/c. SP's will give you more workability but not more cement hydration product. Flooring with these low W/c ratio's will fail over time unless you pour money at them with other remedial materials as you have been doing.

If you saw the delivery trucks arrive at one of our sites you would see a 3" slump adjusted to 6" with only our admix PMT and water and no other chemicals. The concrete is extremely co-hesive, very pumpable with no segregation, slight accelleration in finishing time (due to no bleed) and the shrinkage is second to none (ACI test confirmed) but for you flooring guys, water tight the next day and bond ready for coatings within 7 to 10 days.

I was contacted for a hospital lab floor yesterday where they want the flooring down in 7 days (why the rush) but the contractor who used PMT for an industrial workshop slab told the client he had the product to do this. I look forward to the outcome of his VT testing (he uses the RH probes).

I hope I am not ruffling any feathers!!!!

Best regards.
Reply

#14
Are you talking about Self Consolidating Concrete? 3" to 6". Like lafarge's product

The Aridus product I mentioned seems to say the same things you are saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMsz49YKivk&feature=colike

Also VT testing isn't RH testing. Different things.
Reply

#15
JD,

I will contact you on your e-mail as I feel I am hogging this forum being an outsider.

Re Flyash, PMT is a highly reactive silica solution designed to work with all SCM's. Flyash, silica Fume, Metakaolin, Volcanic ash etc.
The reason is the unique pozzolanic nature of the solution. OH! the testing labs said there was no such thing as a pozzolanic liquid only powders. Our latest test (results not releasable yet) changed that.

Will send info tomorrow.
Reply

#16
Google is king:

http://www.enhance-solutions.com/Pages/Solutions/ConcreteSolIndex.html
(from Calgary) http://www.enhance-solutions.com/_PDFs/PMT-2-SM-99.pdf
Reply

#17
While surface applied silicates may work well for warehouse floors, I am mainly involved with moisture sensitive flooring in the hospice industry.

On paper the science works. In the field however, unreacted silicates are detrimental to flooring adhesion.

My objective on any project is to satisfy the warranty requirements of all product manufacturers. I have not found an adhesive manufacturer that will warrant their adhesive on a floor where liquid silicate sealers have been applied.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
Reply

#18
Further, should there be an issue of further moisture, unreacted silicates are significantly unfriendly to the adhesion of most epoxy sealing systems. Usually the isolation or remediation of those unreacted silicates is the largest expense in further remediation.

Also, ASTM C309-07, Silicate based solutions are chemically reactive bond breakers to floor covering adhesives and do not meet the intent of ASTM C309-07.
Reply

#19
(11-03-2011, 06:40 AM)CC Solutions Wrote:  While surface applied silicates may work well for warehouse floors, I am mainly involved with moisture sensitive flooring in the hospice industry.

On paper the science works. In the field however, unreacted silicates are detrimental to flooring adhesion.

My objective on any project is to satisfy the warranty requirements of all product manufacturers. I have not found an adhesive manufacturer that will warrant their adhesive on a floor where liquid silicate sealers have been applied.

This was going to be my point exactly when I looked at the Enhance Solutions website yesterday. The Densifying compound achieves "Curing and sealing-Dust proofing-Waterproofing-Bonding" among other things. Here's a similar one from Down Under: http://www.con-treat.com.au/concrete-waterproofing-densi-proof.php

Bostik regularly informed us that curing compounds, dustproofing membranes and the like were detrimental to their timber flooring adhesive when direct sticking to concrete. They would not warranty their product in the event of remedial action if the substrate was found to have these additives.

But then, that's the ultimate catch 22 in this game. A porous concrete will release moisture vapour. A tightly sealed, densely-bonded concrete will be problematic for most adhesives.

I can't speak for other flooring options, of course. The densifying process is clearly favoured by some and it certainly sounds interesting.
The problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money.
- Margaret Thatcher

Reply

#20
These silicate type products were given a great name by a GC I was meeting with recently. (happens to be one of the top 50 GC's in the country)

He called such products "Monkey Blood". I almost fell out of my chair laughing.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Burnished vs Floated Slab (Stego) eaadams 4 2,275 05-05-2014, 04:17 PM
Last Post: Ernesto
  measurement in a cold slab Noweare 16 25,705 04-15-2014, 02:30 PM
Last Post: Ernesto
  RH in Concrete for Wood Floor with Vapor Membrane eaadams 35 65,324 05-01-2013, 07:20 AM
Last Post: jim decker
  slab warmer than air eaadams 1 4,325 01-24-2013, 07:03 PM
Last Post: Rubensgt40
  Vapor Drive / Osmotic Action & RH eaadams 5 12,520 12-15-2012, 06:46 AM
Last Post: CC Solutions
  Adhesive/Vapor Retarding Membranes. Ernesto 2 6,787 04-01-2012, 09:08 AM
Last Post: Ernesto
  Old concrete slab moisture DeanC 23 51,430 12-15-2011, 01:20 AM
Last Post: foxgeorge
  CONCRETE SLAB THICKNESS MINUS 2 9,902 09-20-2010, 02:25 PM
Last Post: CC Solutions
  Old Slab Test eaadams 5 12,382 07-12-2010, 07:00 PM
Last Post: Ernesto
  Moisture issues in concrete slab McTile 2 8,961 09-21-2009, 05:17 PM
Last Post: RCConcrete Consulting

Digg   Delicious   Reddit   Facebook   Twitter   StumbleUpon  


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)