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Concrete floor and laminate

#21
Did I say use a moisture mitigation system on top of the K-15? Where? Cool
Where did I say to put K-15 under the moisture mitigation system? Cool
If there's no contaminants then no shotblasting is needed, you can simply scarify.

But really, what slab in a house is not going to get a floorcovering treatment? The concrete people need to start broom finishing the slabs. Everything sticks better.

Oh and you didn't copy the full text.

Surface Preparation:
Surfaces must be absorptive, clean, free from loose materials,
oil, grease, sealers, curing compounds, waxes, silicates, laitance,
and all other surface contaminants that may inhibit proper bond.
Completely remove cutback adhesive residue or other surface
contaminants by shotblasting. All surfaces to be treated must
have a profile of CSP 2-3 (similar to light broom finish), as
defined by ICRI (International Concrete Repair Institute,
Guideline No. 03732).
Surface areas requiring patching or leveling must be treated
using Durabond Webcrete 95, Webcrete 98 or Duralevel
83P Fast Set patches/underlayments on top of the D-261
Extreme Moisture Vapor Barrier Coating according to label
instructions. Durabond Extreme Primer must be used prior to
the installation of these cementitious products
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#22
(03-22-2011, 07:23 PM)Ernesto Wrote:  Yea yea, no one pays attention to the CSP 2-3. Who leaves a broom finish on anything besides a porch these days? I'd rather throw on some K-15 or 55 and broom it than have some bead blaster come in if I didn't need it. And thats a big IF.

This one threw me off.... Sad I didn't get why you'd put down the Ardex and then broom finish that. By the time you prep the floor for K-15, you are prepped for anything! Wink

Now when you say, "If there's no contaminants then no shotblasting is needed, you can simply scarify" I should clarify that in my mind....

I have scarified and it is a nasty, noisy, dusty, violent process. I had to scarify 1/2" off 3,500 sf on one job, and it was really a bad experience. Whereas shot blasting is a quiet, pleasant, dust free process. I blast hundreds of thousands of square feet every year.

I scarify to remove a lot of concrete, or blast to prep a surface. Do you scarify to prep?

And no I didn't copy the entire text, I left out the part that says all patches must go on top of the 261. Thanks for adding that. I was just copying the pre-prep part.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#23
If all you need is some scratch or "light broom surface" you can scarify, that is clearly not the same as taking off a half inch. Thats way to crazy I agree. Why pay a shot blast guy when I can scarify myself?

Most SLC's I've worked with set to smooth and they say to broom finish.
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#24
You know how well shot blasting leaves a surface, it cleans out cracks and gets in little grooves that a scarifier goes right over. I figured you would have a blaster. I just sold a little one for $1700 that would be perfect for residential, in fact the flooring company I sold it to told me they were going to buy one after they installed on some of my work, and I just happened to want to get rid of my smallest blaster, so it worked out perfectly.

Whatever you're comfortable with. I sure don't want to cause you any headache, there's enough to worry about out there!! Big Grin
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#25
Oh well thanks for the belated offer Sad I could use one. But in my 30 plus years on the floor I have yet to need one. I could make some serious coin of one though. That and one of them sittin demo machines.

Maybe next time instead of buying a new truck I'll buy some big machines and becomes demo guy.
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#26
This is an interesting subject; placement of slc's and patch under moisture mitigation systems. And maybe a sood subject for Ray's upcoming webinsar on concrete/flooring flaiures.

I discussed this a few times before with different people. The possibliity of pacthing compounds to emulisfy under MPM's. But here's the question...If you not supposed to place certain patches and slc's under these systems, what the difference between that and placing them under as zero perm floor covering?

I got a PM in to the ardex tech people on this over at flooringinstaller.com where TSchiender does his blog. Maybe we'll get an answer in a week or so. Big Grin
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#27
"I discussed this a few times before with different people. The possibility of patching compounds to emulsify under MPM's. But here's the question...If you not supposed to place certain patches and slc's under these systems, what the difference between that and placing them under as zero perm floor covering?"

Yes this has become our issue . Our prime suppler now specifies to use Mapei QuickPatch in place of Feather Finish under their new high moisture adhesive/material flooring system. It is absurd because, as we all know, QuickPatch doesn't go to a feather edge, it only goes to the ACI definition of a feather (an acute angle). But this is how the big manufacturers are heading IMHO. New good adhesives that will stick under high moisture but the concrete feathering compounds will fail first - usually due to high pH that reactivates the finish and not so much moisture. We recently tried to use RapidSet's new SkimCoat in this use. We though being a hydrolic based cement product it would work. Total headache - way too much sand to feather. The RapidSet tech dept eventually told us "well you should just float the entire floor". We asked them who is going to pay for that. Eventually they had us mix in their acrylic primer into the SkimCoat mix and that worked great. Pull tests pulled off the hard troweling and pulled up the beginning of aggregate. But they later said we couldn't do that in the future.

By specifying low moisture tolerances flooring manufacturers have been hiding a problem for the concrete people. So many other problems occur when you have a high moisture environments that are unrelated to the floor finish.
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#28
Is the quick patch the same as the plani patch? Yea, those have a heavier grit than ardex sf. I have put ardex sf under Bostik MVP4 and under Bostik adhesives like Best and others with no problems at all.

If I put the patch or self leveling inbetween the MPM and adhesive whats the big difference, the ph? Adding the primer into patch? Isin't thatgoing to keep it from setting up as hard?
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
Reply

#29
Oh it set up hard. Way better than w/o. It seemed as if the cement was not hydrating as evaporation was taking the moisture. I think the primer provided a slowing agent to allow the cement to cure. But I really don't know. It worked.
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#30
Ever hear of Hydroment products?
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
Reply


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