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Calcium Carbide testing and Silicates

#41
Sorry Ed, you were put in your place on LinkedIn by adhesive manufacturers that belittled you for saying they have no moisture warranty. Obviously they do, and it is in writing. Every manufacturer warrants their product against moisture failure to a specific RH or MVER. Your sales tactic of trying to scare customers into believing that 6 ounces of your magic potion will revolutionize their concrete and is the ONLY way they get a warranty is ludicrous!

The facts still stand. Silicates ARE a contaminant. Manufacturers WILL void all warranties if they are found on the slab. You have NO written allowance for your contaminant to be applied to a concrete slab with the warranty being retained. We have proof the MVER is not reduced and even Bob who patented silicate products for the concrete industry has told you your product is being mis-specified for something it cannot possibly do.

The truth is when failures happen, you claim it was improper installation and you stick the problem on the installer. That's the cold hard truth. You sell an unproven product that manufacturers warn us about, you use scare tactics to make the sale and then run from failures. You are a salesman, spouting anything to make a sale. Show us some real proof and industry acceptance then we'll talk.

Spray and Pray, then Pay and Pay.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#42
(11-16-2012, 09:03 AM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Sorry Ed, you were put in your place on LinkedIn by adhesive manufacturers that belittled you for saying they have no moisture warranty. Obviously they do, and it is in writing. Every manufacturer warrants their product against moisture failure to a specific RH or MVER. Your sales tactic of trying to scare customers into believing that 6 ounces of your magic potion will revolutionize their concrete and is the ONLY way they get a warranty is ludicrous!

The facts still stand. Silicates ARE a contaminant. Manufacturers WILL void all warranties if they are found on the slab. You have NO written allowance for your contaminant to be applied to a concrete slab with the warranty being retained. We have proof the MVER is not reduced and even Bob who patented silicate products for the concrete industry has told you your product is being mis-specified for something it cannot possibly do.

The truth is when failures happen, you claim it was improper installation and you stick the problem on the installer. That's the cold hard truth. You sell an unproven product that manufacturers warn us about, you use scare tactics to make the sale and then run from failures. You are a salesman, spouting anything to make a sale. Show us some real proof and industry acceptance then we'll talk.

Spray and Pray, then Pay and Pay.

Larry did no such thing. Learn to read.
JD there is no scare tactic. The warranty is not voided it is superseded. And once more and again, in your scenario, that would be a product failure, NOT an MVE failure. With regard to our technology, it is not on the surface. That is what you refuse to comprehend. And the warranty is issued by us...just like when you apply the topical the warranty is issued by that manufacturer.

Epoxy is a contaminant too. Your circular logic is flawed.

We have been accepted, and continue to be accepted each and every day. I have shown you independent testing, the real proof, the same proof we provide to the real experts that evaluate our claims, service history and performance, and ok us for use. The experts who's loyalty is to the building owner, not the adhesive, flooring, mitigation, or meter manufacturer.

My product is not the only way to get a warranty....never made that claim. Again, learn to read. The ONLY way you can GUARANTEE you will not have a MVE related failure and get a comprehensive material and labor warranty against same is with the use of a quality mitigation system. The system I represent is one such system...one of many.


I told you I am not getting into another one of your my big toe is bigger than your big toe arguments. You can resist. You can ignore. I let the facts speak for themselves. They speak, they speak well, they speak louder each and every day. And with each successful specification backed up by each successful project, the facts will only continue to be ignored by those who wish to remain ignorant.
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#43
Really? You never used the scare tactic? Maybe just a few minutes ago you mean:


(11-16-2012, 07:59 AM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  there is NO flooring manufacturer, adhesive manufacturer(with the exception of one), or test meter manufacturer that offers a comprehensive labor and material warranty against a MVE failure. The ONLY way to guarantee you will not have a MVE failure and get a warranty against same is the application of a quality mitigation system.

The truth is ALL of them offer a warranty, UNLESS a contaminant is found on the slab, such as the one you sell.

You shame yourself saying the flooring manufacturers have no interest in their products being successful for their customers. How can you live with yourself using such tactics to make a sale?

Place a good slab, cure it properly, test it using Wagner Rapid RH and install the adhesive directly to the concrete. No magic potion contaminants necessary.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
Reply

#44
(11-16-2012, 09:27 AM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Really? You never used the scare tactic? Maybe just a few minutes ago you mean:


(11-16-2012, 07:59 AM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  there is NO flooring manufacturer, adhesive manufacturer(with the exception of one), or test meter manufacturer that offers a comprehensive labor and material warranty against a MVE failure. The ONLY way to guarantee you will not have a MVE failure and get a warranty against same is the application of a quality mitigation system.

The truth is ALL of them offer a warranty, UNLESS a contaminant is found on the slab, such as the one you sell.

You shame yourself saying the flooring manufacturers have no interest in their products being successful for their customers. How can you live with yourself using such tactics to make a sale?

Place a good slab, cure it properly, test it using Wagner Rapid RH and install the adhesive directly to the concrete. No magic potion contaminants necessary.

How is stating a fact a "scare tactic"?
They all warranty their PRODUCT. Some will cover labor some will not if their PRODUCT fails.

NO guarantee you will not have an MVE failure, no comprehensive material and labor warranty against MVE failure unless you use a quality mitigation system. You can minimize risk, you can test and pray, but you can not guarantee you will not have a failure, and no one warranties, material and labor, against MVE failure except for quality mitigation systems.

With my system, when properly applied, there is nothing on the surface. When proactive, admixture at batch plant, nothing on surface.
When you use an epoxy system, you contaminate the surface with epoxy, and in most cases reintroduce VOCs into the building envelope. Then top with a cementitious SLU so the adhesive will stick. You contaminate the concrete slab.

In both cases the mitigation system manufacturer provides the comprehensive material and labor warranty against MVE failure and that warranty supersedes the flooring or adhesive manufacturer.

This is not a scare tactic, it is a factual statement.

Have a good weekend everybody.
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#45
Argggg....

How is any of this different than anything you have?

You say you have a warranty IF YOUR PRODUCT FAILS. You DO NOT warrant if the cement mixture is wrong, if the spray and pray applicator had a bad day and left puddles of product all over. You do not warrant if the adhesive skinned over before flooring began, you do not warrant if the floor has jet airplanes landing on it.

Your warranty is EXACTLY the same as the flooring manufacturer's. You have a set of limits and you warrant up to those limits. The flooring manufacturer may say they warrant to 85% RH that their adhesive will NOT fail due to moisture. Some warrant to 90% and some even to 95%.

And I know of many manufacturers that will warrant product and installation of their flooring if it met requirements at installation. In fact I would go out on a limb and say every manufacturer will warrant their product fully if the installation requirements are met. Moisture doesn't magically appear from nowhere. If you properly construct a slab and properly test it you are going to succeed.

You show me a failure and I'll show you where the specs weren't followed somewhere along the line.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#46
(11-16-2012, 03:06 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Argggg....

How is any of this different than anything you have?

You say you have a warranty IF YOUR PRODUCT FAILS. You DO NOT warrant if the cement mixture is wrong, if the spray and pray applicator had a bad day and left puddles of product all over. You do not warrant if the adhesive skinned over before flooring began, you do not warrant if the floor has jet airplanes landing on it.

Your warranty is EXACTLY the same as the flooring manufacturer's. You have a set of limits and you warrant up to those limits. The flooring manufacturer may say they warrant to 85% RH that their adhesive will NOT fail due to moisture. Some warrant to 90% and some even to 95%.

And I know of many manufacturers that will warrant product and installation of their flooring if it met requirements at installation. In fact I would go out on a limb and say every manufacturer will warrant their product fully if the installation requirements are met. Moisture doesn't magically appear from nowhere. If you properly construct a slab and properly test it you are going to succeed.

You show me a failure and I'll show you where the specs weren't followed somewhere along the line.

This has already been explained to you ad nauseum. Even Robert...the very same Robert you claim is against the technology I represent (he is not), has explained to you how it can fail. You are 100% correct...manufacturers will warrant their product when installed if requirements are met at installation AND if there is a failure after installation where the testing is holding true to what it was prior to install.

But when you have a failure....and it is not an install issue, if the testing at time of failure is the same at time of install...and it is within the pre install guidelines...yes you should have a warranty. That warranty would be against PRODUCT failure. The adhesive did not perform as per its spec.

But what happens when it meets at preinstall...floor in isnstalled, a few weeks or months later it fails...it is tested...and now it is outside of mfgr requirements. Without a warranty from a quality mitigation system...the flooring manufactuer, the adhesive manufacturer will say "your floor failed the test results are outside of our parameters...have a nice day."
That is the difference between a product failure and a MVE failure.

you are too smart not to get this simple concept....you are remaining ignorant on purpose. We see through you
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#47
(11-16-2012, 11:10 PM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  But what happens when it meets at preinstall...floor in isnstalled, a few weeks or months later it fails...it is tested...and now it is outside of mfgr requirements.
That is the difference between a product failure and a MVE failure.

Wrong.

If a floor fails due to moisture and it is within the manufacturer's specs, it is still a failure due to moisture. And the manufacturer should cover it.

If the slab reads much higher than it did during installation, it is a failure caused by something else. The water didn't come from the evil flooring spirits. It is someone's fault. Somebody did something wrong, and we can determine who is responsible.

You are far too new to this business to understand.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#48
(11-17-2012, 06:22 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  
(11-16-2012, 11:10 PM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  But what happens when it meets at preinstall...floor in isnstalled, a few weeks or months later it fails...it is tested...and now it is outside of mfgr requirements.
That is the difference between a product failure and a MVE failure.

Wrong.

If a floor fails due to moisture and it is within the manufacturer's specs, it is still a failure due to moisture. And the manufacturer should cover it.

If the slab reads much higher than it did during installation, it is a failure caused by something else. The water didn't come from the evil flooring spirits. It is someone's fault. Somebody did something wrong, and we can determine who is responsible.

You are far too new to this business to understand.

LOL...

JD. when a manufacturer says a floor will not fail between X and Y, that is the spec and that is what the manufacturer says. If the floor fails and it fails between X and Y then you have a product failure because the product is supposed to perform between X and Y. That is not a MVE failure..it is a PRODUCT failure, and that is when the MFGR steps up to the plate...as they should.

If the readings are higher at failure time than they are at install time...Robert has already explained to you how that can happen. It happens. When it happens, the flooring manufacturer, the adhesive manufacturer, and the test equipment manufacturer walks away....because they can...and they should! That is what you refuse to acknowledge.

A vapor barrier gets punctured during installation. I know that NEVER happens but humor me....

The slab, at the time it is tested, under "ideal" conditions tests within limits....floor is installed, the vapor barrier continues to degrade, floor fails....it is tested...outside of limits...and everyone walks away.

JD do you get this yet? I am not saying your preferred test method does not work. On a straight concrete slab, with no other factors at work, it is more accurate than previous methods to test potential for failure due to MVE. But that is what it tests...potential for failure. It is a risk management tool. Nothing more. Floors fail after being tested "within limits" at the time of install with your preferred test method.

You keep fighting a losing battle. Yes I am a manufacturers rep. I represent several quality manufacturers. Their products work. One of which has the absolute best repair, restoration, patching and overlay material on the market. It is untouchable. There is not a manufacturer on in the marketplace that is close to the performance of this product.

Another manufacturer I represent has among other things a concrete admixture. This admixture simply makes concrete impermeable. It eliminates one of the two sources of moisture protects against the other. It has multiple ancillary benefits.

JD you are correct. 4 years into it, this is a new industry to me, as compared to you. That does not make you better than me. I have several customers that have "been in concrete 30 years" One of the things I have learned is sometimes an outsider looking in sees things that those who have been doing longer don't. That is not me saying I am better than you...just possibly have a different point of view. You don't know much about me aside from linkedin....I have a technical background. I am not an academic, I do dig deep into things, I don't just take a manufacturer's word that something works simply because I am a "salesman trying to make a sale" If it goes on my line card, it works. I have seen it work, I understand why it works, how it works, I have taken it apart, I have tried to break it, I have tested it's limits, I am confident the info from the manufacturer is accurate about performance. I don't just spout talking points and attempt to make a sale. I sell with honesty, I sell with integrity, I am not out to make a "quick sale" and walk away. When someone buys my product my job is not over...it has just begun!

My lack of experience in this industry is not a hindrance, it is a benefit. Experience does not = intelligence, and it does not always = wisdom.


JD you do realize that even a slight change in ambient temperature, a slight change in concrete temperature changes the test results of all test methods including rapid RH don't you?

Just because rapid RH appears to be more accurate than the other methods..does not mean it is the ONLY test that is "accurate". It does not mean that owners and other interested parties should embrace that single test.

I am not here pitching a product. I am here for other reasons.

Sorry dude..
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#49
Obviously I know temperature affects relative humidity as temperature is one factor of the product. For this reason we test at service conditions. Testing outside of these conditions gives us a less accurate reading and now we have a failure to follow specifications.

Puncturing the vapor retarder is also a failure to follow specifications. However, a punctured vapor retarder is not as big a problem as some believe. Suprenant proved this through laboratory testing and published an article about it. In my own work I have also found this to be true, and my engineers, architects and I modified the installation specs for vapor retarders under our slabs because of our testing results. We could do this because WE held the full warranty for life.

I am not saying I am better than you, what I am saying is it is quite amazing how you have stumbled upon the greatest products in the industry in four short years. Your admix solves all concrete problems in one little bottle. Your coatings are better than anyone's.

While the rest of the planet struggles with problems, one guy in the Midwest has all the answers, but no industry leaders will listen to him. Hmmmm either the entire industry is ignorant and out to stick facility owners with problems or that one guy in the Midwest is maybe a bit on the wacky side.Huh

In that way we are much alike. I also believe I have the answers. My answers cost nothing but some work, in fact they save a lot of money!

Use a proper vapor retarder directly under the slab (no blotter layer).
Pour a well graded concrete mix (high strength /less cement).
Limit the amount of water not just W/C ratio (you can limit cement also).
Finish the concrete so it is left porous and breathes.
Cure the concrete with water for 3 days only.
Eliminate re-wetting.
Promote drying with airflow and low humidity.
Test the slab using Wagner Rapid RH probes.
Glue directly to the concrete and enjoy.

My company did this again and again and again, but we controlled all aspects of the construction.
Trying to bring groups of trades together, each with their own agenda, for one common cause is much more difficult, but I have had some success. For the few times a mitigation system is required, we can install one for $2/sf.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#50
-----------------------
Use a proper vapor retarder directly under the slab (no blotter layer).
Pour a well graded concrete mix (high strength /less cement).
Limit the amount of water not just W/C ratio (you can limit cement also).
Finish the concrete so it is left porous and breathes. (I have begun to add to my specs's - "perform a single steel pass to create a smooth finish, do not over finish concrete." )
Cure the concrete with water for 3 days only.
Eliminate re-wetting.
Promote drying with airflow and low humidity.
Test the slab using Wagner Rapid RH probes.
Glue directly to the concrete and enjoy.
-----------------------

What would you add to this to limit curling? I know it isn't moisture but a big part of my issues with getting properly done slab on vapor membrane is limiting curling.

Side note: "evil flooring spirits" gave me a great chuckle. I didn't realize I had been missing out on such a good thread.
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