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Calcium Carbide testing and Silicates

#31
(10-15-2012, 08:34 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Hopefully Howard's latest report debunks the silicate myth.....

Yeah, there's only one silicate product down here which is highly promoted in general flooring, I believe it came from the US. It's certainly being pushed as a cure-all for moisture problems. Most adhesive/mitigation manufacturers are highly dismissive of it. That said, there are some concrete coatings producers who warranty over it. Good luck to them.
The problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money.
- Margaret Thatcher

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#32
(10-21-2012, 04:34 PM)Rubensgt40 Wrote:  
(10-15-2012, 08:34 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Hopefully Howard's latest report debunks the silicate myth.....

Yeah, there's only one silicate product down here which is highly promoted in general flooring, I believe it came from the US. It's certainly being pushed as a cure-all for moisture problems. Most adhesive/mitigation manufacturers are highly dismissive of it. That said, there are some concrete coatings producers who warranty over it. Good luck to them.

Of course the adhesive/mitigation manufacturers are highly dismissive of it. It is a competitive product to the standard mitigation systems. When QUALITY products of this nature are PROPERLY used, there is no need for the several dollar a square foot mitigation systems. Do you really think the mitigation manufacturers are going to sing the praises of such a product?
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#33
Hello Ed.

Don't believe for a minute that if something works, actually WORKS, that every adhesive and flooring manufacturer on the planet wouldn't be singing its praises.

The fact is, ALL these silicate magic potions have had failures, and the industry warns us against using them.

If any residue of your product is found on the slab where a failure has occurred, the manufacturer will immediately VOID the warranty and walk away.

That's the way the industry is set up right now. If you don't like it you should change it, and that doesn't start with us guys here on the bottom. You have to convince the big boys first, have them endorse it and remove the clauses stating your product is a contaminant, then come tell us how great it is.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#34
(11-15-2012, 12:49 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  Hello Ed.

Don't believe for a minute that if something works, actually WORKS, that every adhesive and flooring manufacturer on the planet wouldn't be singing its praises.

The fact is, ALL these silicate magic potions have had failures, and the industry warns us against using them.

If any residue of your product is found on the slab where a failure has occurred, the manufacturer will immediately VOID the warranty and walk away.

That's the way the industry is set up right now. If you don't like it you should change it, and that doesn't start with us guys here on the bottom. You have to convince the big boys first, have them endorse it and remove the clauses stating your product is a contaminant, then come tell us how great it is.

Topically applied silicates are a contaminant when not properly installed, but then that is an INSTALL problem not a product problem. Manufacturers can not void a warranty that has been superseded.
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#35
(11-15-2012, 02:13 PM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  Topically applied silicates are a contaminant when not properly installed, but then that is an INSTALL problem not a product problem.

I agree they are a contaminant. And you are placing the entire warranty on the back of the installer, a Joe six-pack who is really more concerned about getting out of the building and watching the ball game at the tavern later on.

The flooring manufacturer will walk away.
The adhesive manufacturer will walk away.
The installer will shrug his shoulders, say he did his job by the book and has no idea why the job failed.
And the silicate manufacturer will take the position that the installation was faulty and walk away.

The owner, the GC and the flooring installer will be left to make repairs and eat the cost.

This is not a fairytale, I have seen it happen dozens of times.

Fair warning! If you want to spray a 'contaminant' on your slab in DIRECT violation of the warranty requirements set by the product manufacturers, well good luck to you.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#36
(11-15-2012, 02:27 PM)CC Solutions Wrote:  
(11-15-2012, 02:13 PM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  Topically applied silicates are a contaminant when not properly installed, but then that is an INSTALL problem not a product problem.

I agree they are a contaminant. And you are placing the entire warranty on the back of the installer, a Joe six-pack who is really more concerned about getting out of the building and watching the ball game at the tavern later on.

The flooring manufacturer will walk away.
The adhesive manufacturer will walk away.
The installer will shrug his shoulders, say he did his job by the book and has no idea why the job failed.
And the silicate manufacturer will take the position that the installation was faulty and walk away.

The owner, the GC and the flooring installer will be left to make repairs and eat the cost.

This is not a fairytale, I have seen it happen dozens of times.

Fair warning! If you want to spray a 'contaminant' on your slab in DIRECT violation of the warranty requirements set by the product manufacturers, well good luck to you.

That is a very unfair characterization of installers. There are professional, quality, trained, certified installers of this technology that enjoy great success with Quality non destructive, properly applied systems.
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#37
(11-15-2012, 10:47 AM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  Of course the adhesive/mitigation manufacturers are highly dismissive of it. It is a competitive product to the standard mitigation systems. When QUALITY products of this nature are PROPERLY used, there is no need for the several dollar a square foot mitigation systems. Do you really think the mitigation manufacturers are going to sing the praises of such a product?

An adhesive is the manufacturer's bread and butter- you need it whether the slab is wet or not. They can live without selling mitigation systems. They need to know that a product is not going to cause their adhesive to fail, and it's not their responsibility to put the R & D into it. By the way, the silicate-based product I'm talking about is as pricey and in some cases more expensive that "standard mitigation systems".
The problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money.
- Margaret Thatcher

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#38
(11-16-2012, 01:52 AM)Rubensgt40 Wrote:  
(11-15-2012, 10:47 AM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  Of course the adhesive/mitigation manufacturers are highly dismissive of it. It is a competitive product to the standard mitigation systems. When QUALITY products of this nature are PROPERLY used, there is no need for the several dollar a square foot mitigation systems. Do you really think the mitigation manufacturers are going to sing the praises of such a product?

An adhesive is the manufacturer's bread and butter- you need it whether the slab is wet or not. They can live without selling mitigation systems. They need to know that a product is not going to cause their adhesive to fail, and it's not their responsibility to put the R & D into it. By the way, the silicate-based product I'm talking about is as pricey and in some cases more expensive that "standard mitigation systems".

Yes Sir. And that is why contrary to what JD chooses to believe, the system I represent has done mechanical shear bond testing with many of the big name manufacturer's of adhesive with fantastic results. I am personally getting ready to do testing with one of the big boys on one of the projects I have going in my geography, at their request.

On to another note. Unless I am mistaken, the system you are talking about is the system I represent here in the midwest. The admixture is certainly not more money than the standard mitigation systems. It can't be. It would surprise me if the topically applied integral is. However I have no idea what the market is in your geography, (although I did love the time I spent there a few years back). Part of our pitch is that we are less expensive than "traditional" methods, less labor, less negative impact on your construction schedule.

I'd like the opportunity to touch base with you off the board if you don't mind?
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#39
Shear bond testing in a lab? On wet concrete? After 2 years of sitting? After 10 years? Under field applied conditions? I think not.

The fact remains. Silicate moisture mitigation is NOT accepted by flooring manufacturers. When it is, please let us know.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#40
All of the above JD. I am not going to get into another one of your childish my big toe is bigger than your big toe schoolyard spats on this forum. I will let you do your trolling.

We are being accepted by those that make the decisions. The fact that you can not dispute is that the real experts are doing exactly what Mr Kanare encourages them to do in his infamous white paper...

“We provide this information as general background on the state of knowledge regarding these materials. Each commercial product should be evaluated based on the manufacturer's specific claims, service history, and supporting evidence.” If only he had done that, he would not have written that paper.

With regard to the specific quality manufacturer I represent, the experts are evaluating our specific claims, service history, and supporting evidence and all drawing the same conclusion.....it works! We are enjoying great success in both the specification and project venues. We have contractors, owners, and yes JD even flooring installers submitting our systems when we are not specified.

We have already established on another forum that you abandoned, that there is NO flooring manufacturer, adhesive manufacturer(with the exception of one), or test meter manufacturer that offers a comprehensive labor and material warranty against a MVE failure. The ONLY way to guarantee you will not have a MVE failure and get a warranty against same is the application of a quality mitigation system. That system then supersedes the others, you follow their installation and testing protocols, and they issue the warranty. The big K then assumes the risk and issues the warranty. Or the big M, or the big A, or in our case the big V.

Have you ever actually read the warranty from the flooring manufacturer you are so concerned about? Did you ever wonder why a flooring manufacturer would void their "wear" warranty if their adhesive is not used? Is it because the others don't work? Not likely since many come out of the same plant. Or is is because they simply want more of your money?
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