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Adhesive Warranty

#1
What do you all think about this Bostik adhesive spec for moisture testing?

http://www.bostik-us.com/sites/default/files/H22_UlTRA_SET.pdf

Concrete Moisture Vapor Limits for subfloor moisture
vapor protection
ASTM 1869 Calcium Chloride Method
ASTM 2179 Relative Humidity Test
Concrete Moisture Vapor Limits for bond
No Limit / Dry-to-the-touch
No Limit / Dry-to-the-touch
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#2
Two things:

1) "All surfaces to be treated must have a concrete surface profile of CSP 2-3"
- This is key. To create a CSP 2-3 you are spending some bucks on concrete prep. This is probably the best way for them to get out of any claim. Assume a CSP 3 will be required on complaint and that is really only achievable by light shot blasting. (ICRI Guideline No 310.2-1997)
2) It does reference ASTM 2179. You have to worry about anyone who promotes a product for moisture and doesn't reference correct ASTM numbers. I've met the guys from Bostic and they know their stuff; so, I think this is just a Typo because they use ASTM E2179 for sound insulation.
3) There is inconsistency in their use of Moisture Vapor "Retarder" and Moisture Vapor "Membrane". Manufacturers get in BIG trouble with this. They are different things. Usually lost in European to English translation. But when the attorneys get involved, that little inconsistency, that one little word, will be the source of LOTS of heartache for all involved. If I were using this product I would heavily qualify all my work as it using a "retarder" and not use the word membrane. Moisture Retarder Vapor Barrier vs Vapor Retarder [note there is no Vapor Membrane ASTM out there]http://www.stegoindustries.com/faqs/what_is_the_difference_between_a_vapor_barrier_and_a_vapor_retarder.html

Also I see no reference for PH, but perhaps that isn't needed for glue down wood floors.

Finally read the warranty. Only covers the Bostic. Not the flooring or labor of replacement. [/align]
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#3
(11-19-2012, 11:19 AM)eaadams Wrote:  Two things:

1) "All surfaces to be treated must have a concrete surface profile of CSP 2-3"
- This is key. To create a CSP 2-3 you are spending some bucks on concrete prep. This is probably the best way for them to get out of any claim. Assume a CSP 3 will be required on complaint and that is really only achievable by light shot blasting. (ICRI Guideline No 310.2-1997)
2) It does reference ASTM 2179. You have to worry about anyone who promotes a product for moisture and doesn't reference correct ASTM numbers. I've met the guys from Bostic and they know their stuff; so, I think this is just a Typo because they use ASTM E2179 for sound insulation.
3) There is inconsistency in their use of Moisture Vapor "Retarder" and Moisture Vapor "Membrane". Manufacturers get in BIG trouble with this. They are different things. Usually lost in European to English translation. But when the attorneys get involved, that little inconsistency, that one little word, will be the source of LOTS of heartache for all involved. If I were using this product I would heavily qualify all my work as it using a "retarder" and not use the word membrane. Moisture Retarder Vapor Barrier vs Vapor Retarder [note there is no Vapor Membrane ASTM out there]http://www.stegoindustries.com/faqs/what_is_the_difference_between_a_vapor_barrier_and_a_vapor_retarder.html

Also I see no reference for PH, but perhaps that isn't needed for glue down wood floors.

Finally read the warranty. Only covers the Bostic. Not the flooring or labor of replacement. [/align]

Great post.... Wink
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#4
(11-19-2012, 11:19 AM)eaadams Wrote:  Finally read the warranty. Only covers the Bostic. Not the flooring or labor of replacement. [/align]

I only know of ONE adhesive manufacturer that supersedes mfgr warranties and offers a labor and material warranty. The rest will cover their product, some will offer labor and material if their product fails...others simply replace the product.

I have spent a lot of time as of late reading flooring and adhesive manufacturer warranties.

Most simply cover failure due to manufacturer defects. None offer a comprehensive material and labor warranty due to MVE associated failure (exception of one adhesive manufacturer as cited above)

My absolute favorite is the flooring manufacturer that will void their product warranty if you don't use their glue.
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#5
(11-19-2012, 12:41 PM)ILLENTINC Wrote:  My absolute favorite is the flooring manufacturer that will void their product warranty if you don't use their glue.

Yes there are manufacturers that try to say this! A quick call to their legal department expressing your concern will reveal the fact that they cannot do this and will not try to enforce that clause.

The truth is you can use any adhesive you wish and the floor warranty remains the same. You can stick the floor down with peanut butter if you'd like.

On the other hand if the flooring manufacturer raises any questions about the interaction between your adhesive of choice (or peanut butter if you used that) you will be stuck trying to prove the issue is not with the adhesive. This could include staining, curling, bubbling, product shrinkage, etc.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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#6
I think you are refering to flooring & adhesive manufacturers. From the moisture perspective, doesn't Ardex MC Ultra cover from sealing system through flooring if it fails?
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#7
You mean I cannot achieve a csp-2 with a diamond profile grinder? Do you realize how much adhesive you would use on a csp-3? lol

Read the bottom one and page 2, 3

http://www.bostik-us.com/resource-center/warranties

http://www.bostik-us.com/sites/default/files/warranties/Bostik%20HW%20Flooring%20Installation%20Products%20Warranty_8%2010%2011.doc

But what is this? "Excessive substrate moisture" ??? Isn't this what their initial claim to fame is?

Exclusions: This Warranty does not cover damage resulting from:
• Structural failure, faulty structural design, structural movement, excessive structural deflection or other failure of substrate, inadequate subflooring, or improper preparation of substrate or subfloor
• Excessive substrate moisture; moisture due to improper preparation of substrate; exposure to excessive levels of atmospheric moisture or humidity; or exposure to water from flooding, leaks, “puddling”, hydrostatic head, or any source of moisture that does not originate from the sub-floor.
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#8
exactly. You had better plan on CSP 3 on all jobs. Otherwise, lets say I'm called to inspect it, I would say ... "hmm it does say CSP 2-3 however on this project a CSP 3 would have been appropriate ... yada yada yada" for whatever reason I make up at the time (if I as an inspector am being paid by owner / owner attorney).

And those two exclusions are pretty common for what I call 'glue systems' aka glue products that will withstand moisture. Only when you get to the high end epoxy products do you get them accepting the concrete as is no matter what future moisture might attack it. And even then.... it is really all about the CSP achieved and the quality of applicator you work with. There are probably only 5-10 in California I would trust. (and California is kinda a big state)
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#9
What a load of bovine dung. Your going to tell me that an adhesive will not stick to a CSP-2? A CSP-3 LOOKS LIKE THE SURFACE OF THE MOON as compared to a CSP-1. That in itself will probably cause your coverage to drop DRAMATICALLY per gallon if used for a vapor retarder.

I have seen urethanes pull the crust of a smooth concrete surface off when demoing it.
Stephen Perrera dba
Top Floor Installation Co.
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com
http://www.floorsavior.com
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#10
Hmmm... I think a CSP 3 is pretty darn smooth.

Lots of specs call for a CSP 3, 4 or even 5 before finishing can take place.

Sounds like your urethane pulled off some concrete carbonation. Good concrete will have a tensile strength of around 350 psi. If it's under 250 psi I'd recommend doing something before coating it.
JD Grafton
Concrete Answers for Flooring Problems
[email protected]
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